Crossbred bulls

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cowspider

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Have any of you used crossbred bulls? ( Like black baldies?)
Are there any advantages like useing crossbred cows??
I seen a very good looking black baldie bull at the sale last weekend and it got me to wandering if this may be something to look into for my next bull.
 

ALACOWMAN

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if a crossbred bull has been bred for a certain goal their fine like a F1 bulls too a certain purebred cow. too produce whatever. other than that they have no benefit as for as the HV goes. too many breeds in the woodpile the HV starts a downward plain. this is just a cowboys veiw not fact
 

jnowack

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First I would caution you about buying any bull from the sale barn. They are usually there for a reason. Somebody culled them.

Now there are crossbreds, hybrids, composites etc. Generally the hybrids and composites have registation papers and some performance data and EPD's. But they are still crossbreds. What I call a true composite is like a Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster, Brangus...etc. The initial crosses are made and then they breed them to each other to make more of the breed rather than just crossing 2 or 3 breeds over and over.

The hybrids are usually 50-50 or 75-25 of 2 breeds.(F1 OR F2).
There are a lot of people out there who think these hybrids are great. Maybe they will work well on a group of very uniform consistant cows. But most commercial herds have a degree of diversity and will probably have a more uniform calf crop when bred to a purebred.
 

Caustic Burno

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ALACOWMAN":36o1kbzu said:
if a crossbred bull has been bred for a certain goal their fine like a F1 bulls too a certain purebred cow. too produce whatever. other than that they have no benefit as for as the HV goes. too many breeds in the woodpile the HV starts a downward plain. this is just a cowboys veiw not fact

You got that right about the woodpile. No matter what the bull looks like a crossbred bull is a piss poor excuse for a herd bull.
With that many in the wood pile sure to get a consistent calf crop.What a joke.
 

jnowack

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The other thing to remember when looking at crossbred bulls is that the hybrid vigor in these bulls distorts the true picture of what their genetics are. Part of their growth is due to hybrid vigor and a purebred bull that ratioed lower in the same contemorary group will likely put more growth in his calves than the cross.
 

ALACOWMAN

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jnowack":27b69tzb said:
First I would caution you about buying any bull from the sale barn. They are usually there for a reason. Somebody culled them.

Now there are crossbreds, hybrids, composites etc. Generally the hybrids and composites have registation papers and some performance data and EPD's. But they are still crossbreds. What I call a true composite is like a Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster, Brangus...etc. The initial crosses are made and then they breed them to each other to make more of the breed rather than just crossing 2 or 3 breeds over and over.

The hybrids are usually 50-50 or 75-25 of 2 breeds.(F1 OR F2).
There are a lot of people out there who think these hybrids are great. Maybe they will work well on a group of very uniform consistant cows. But most commercial herds have a degree of diversity and will probably have a more uniform calf crop when bred to a purebred.
yep what he said ;-)
 

Angus Cattle Shower

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Caustic Burno":1wunyx12 said:
ALACOWMAN":1wunyx12 said:
if a crossbred bull has been bred for a certain goal their fine like a F1 bulls too a certain purebred cow. too produce whatever. other than that they have no benefit as for as the HV goes. too many breeds in the woodpile the HV starts a downward plain. this is just a cowboys veiw not fact

You got that right about the woodpile. No matter what the bull looks like a crossbred bull is a be nice poor excuse for a herd bull.
With that many in the wood pile sure to get a consistent calf crop.What a joke.

I beg to differ, Caustic. We run a Supa Baldie bull (5/8 Red Angus, 3/8 Simmental) which is a cross, we have consistent calf cr4ops each year. It is liek running crossbred cows. We found that this cross puts on more pounds, and finishes faster than any other one that we have tried. Not saying this for all crossbred bulls, but not all are benice.
 
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cowspider

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I run Angus and Hereford cows. We rotate both breed of bulls now. I thought a Black Baldie bull would work because he is a cross of both. I may be wrong that is why i asked. :cboy:
 

TxStateCowboy

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We had a Brangus/Limo cross bull that was super-fertile and put out hefty, fast growing calves. cows were crosses too, but the weaned calves brought $475-500 each, and we're in a drought. Now that is low-cost production.
 

BRG

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OK, don't want to p--- off anyone here but here are my thoughts... Sorry if I do...

Cross bred bull/hybred bulls/composite or whatever you want to call them, they use the best part of it themselves. They get the majority of the hybrid vigor on their own growth.

Say you cross them on your cows. Most people have an angus base herd, then they have something else say gelbvieh or symental, Well most hybrids in my area are gelbvieh/angus or sym/angus. By crossing these on your angus/gelbvieh or angus/sym cows you are either using the same breeds and not getting any vigor or you are throwing another breed in the mix and you start to loose consistancy. Or lets say you already have a 4 way cross of Ang/Herf/Sym/Char, like a lot of breeders in the eastern Dakotas, then you put a composite of Angus/Gelb. Now you have even a bigger mess. In the dog world this is called a mutt.
 

Caustic Burno

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Angus Cattle Shower":3vxz45yh said:
Caustic Burno":3vxz45yh said:
ALACOWMAN":3vxz45yh said:
if a crossbred bull has been bred for a certain goal their fine like a F1 bulls too a certain purebred cow. too produce whatever. other than that they have no benefit as for as the HV goes. too many breeds in the woodpile the HV starts a downward plain. this is just a cowboys veiw not fact

You got that right about the woodpile. No matter what the bull looks like a crossbred bull is a be nice poor excuse for a herd bull.
With that many in the wood pile sure to get a consistent calf crop.What a joke.

I beg to differ, Caustic. We run a Supa Baldie bull (5/8 Red Angus, 3/8 Simmental) which is a cross, we have consistent calf cr4ops each year. It is liek running crossbred cows. We found that this cross puts on more pounds, and finishes faster than any other one that we have tried. Not saying this for all crossbred bulls, but not all are benice.

Your full of **** as a christmas turkey as you will never get cosistent calfs out of crossbreed crap. There is a lot of difference in a composite and a crossbred mut.
Takes seven generations to produce a true composite that will breed true.
 

jnowack

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To some people a uniform calf crop just means 4 legs and a tail.
 

smnherf

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I have done a lot of research on heterosis and the conclusion I come to is that you will make more money by haveing the heterosis in your calf crop and in your cow herd rather than in your herd bull.

Some of the big composite marketers near me who use the theory of 'simple solutions to complex crossbreeding problems' is very misleading. Because if you use more than 2 generations of a composite bull in your cowherd, you will have less heterosis in your calves than if you simply used a simple two breed rotation. Since most people have cows older than 2 years, you will still have to use a different composite bull on your young cows than you use on your old cows. Ultimately you end up with a cowherd that has 4 or 5 breeds of varying percentages in it and keeping trackof it can get pretty complex.

Bottom line, there is no easy way to maximize heterosis unless you are willing to sort your cows according to breed percentages and then mate your cows to bulls of unlike geneotypes.

Plus, I haven't even mentioned the effect it has on your cowherd over a period of time.
 

UG

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Back in the 70's the beef industry said that we wouldn't be successful with hybrid bulls even though the poultry industry had been using hybrid males for years with great success. At the same time the swine industry was also starting to use a significant number of specific crossbred boars. Today in the swine industry the majority of commercial, progressive swine herds use hybrid boars...are they are successful.

Now, before some of you jump all over me on this, I need to remind you that these boars are not just crossbred mutts of 3 or 4 different breeds, but typically a two breed cross of complimentary breeds. Generally the breeds that make-up the boars genetics are not found in the maternal line so that the producer can maximize heterosis. I see a whole lot of hogs, and most of these are 3 or 4 way cross hogs. They are very consistent in type.

Now, getting back to the 70's, the "experts" at the time said we couldn't use hybrid bulls because we would have too much inconsistency in our calf crop. Well, reasearch has proven that there isn't anymore inconsistency in calf crops sired by good composite or hybrid bulls than by good purebred bulls ...I know, for some of you this is a hard pill to swallow.

If you look at the variety in body style in just the black Angus breed, there is tremendous variability. Some breeders will breed a small framed 6I6 daughter to a big framed 5175 son. The resulting bull calf looks very impressive and is sold to a commercial producer. In the resulting calf crop there are some big framed, slab sided calves, small framed calves with no butt, and everything in between. Just because a bull is a purebred, doesn't mean he will sire consistency.

There are plenty of good F1 Balancer, SimAngus, and other composite bulls that will sire very consistent calves; especially when the parents of the bull are of consistent body style, frame, etc.
 

ALACOWMAN

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UG":w1bzwgw3 said:
Back in the 70's the beef industry said that we wouldn't be successful with hybrid bulls even though the poultry industry had been using hybrid males for years with great success. At the same time the swine industry was also starting to use a significant number of specific crossbred boars. Today in the swine industry the majority of commercial, progressive swine herds use hybrid boars...are they are successful.

Now, before some of you jump all over me on this, I need to remind you that these boars are not just crossbred mutts of 3 or 4 different breeds, but typically a two breed cross of complimentary breeds. Generally the breeds that make-up the boars genetics are not found in the maternal line so that the producer can maximize heterosis. I see a whole lot of hogs, and most of these are 3 or 4 way cross hogs. They are very consistent in type.

Now, getting back to the 70's, the "experts" at the time said we couldn't use hybrid bulls because we would have too much inconsistency in our calf crop. Well, reasearch has proven that there isn't anymore inconsistency in calf crops sired by good composite or hybrid bulls than by good purebred bulls ...I know, for some of you this is a hard pill to swallow.

If you look at the variety in body style in just the black Angus breed, there is tremendous variability. Some breeders will breed a small framed 6I6 daughter to a big framed 5175 son. The resulting bull calf looks very impressive and is sold to a commercial producer. In the resulting calf crop there are some big framed, slab sided calves, small framed calves with no butt, and everything in between. Just because a bull is a purebred, doesn't mean he will sire consistency.

There are plenty of good F1 Balancer, SimAngus, and other
  • composite bulls that will sire very consistent calves; especially when the parents of the bull
are of consistent body style, frame, etc.
I agree they can sire consistent calves but the momas need too be a certain breed too get them. consistent needs consistent. too get a uniform result. other wise look out like was said a uniform group could be all calving at the same time. but im talking about size, color muscle,bone etc. i prefer my cows too have the HV any how
 

SEC

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We used to run a few crossbred bulls, they were simmXangus. The long and the short of it was that they were either simmental or Angus they weren't a combination of both. The first one weighed 1800lbs as a 5 year old bull and would calve heifers like a damn, straighten color up and left a nice set of calves. The 2nd bull throw more Simmy like calves, more birthweight, more ears, more frame. The common denominator between those bulls was they didn'tgive us enough hair. The calves we sold off those bulls were a nickel off the top of the market, buyers said they needed hair.

I am not a fan of the hybrid bull as it's a discredit to the purebred Industry. Also, if all it takes is a few breeds and a crossbred bull to make these composites it becomes easier for people to sell them. Selling breeding stock is far more than raising cattle with nuts. Integrity, honesty and a passion for improving the cattle industry should be the 1st things said when it comes to being a breeder. With most people screaming for consistency, i am not sure how hybrid bulls are going to help that out.
 

circlet

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boy, I really agree in theory with almost everything most of you are saying when you're bashing a cross-breed bull. i never had and (probably) never would use one. but there's a guy in my neck of the woods who has cross-bred bulls - he does have a relatively small herd. but counter to what my good (?) sense tells me, he generally does allright with his calve crop. but there are exceptions to every rule i suppose.
 
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