Crossbred bulls

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cowspider

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I didn't mean to pull the tigers tail. Maybe I should just go back to using straight Angus bull and be done with it. The cross bull was just a thought. (not a good one I guess)

Thanks for all your Information. SHOOT THE MUTTS !!! :cboy: :cboy:
 

VanC

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The breeders that market crossbred, hybrid, composite bulls will tell you they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. The purebred breeders will tell you differently. Who's right? I guess it depends on your situation.

A hybrid bull on purebred cows might work if the breeds making up the bull are similar. But then you lose the maternal heterosis that works so well for most people. IMHO a purebred bull on crossbred cows is still the way to go.
 

ALACOWMAN

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VanC":3d6xq4wc said:
The breeders that market crossbred, hybrid, composite bulls will tell you they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. The purebred breeders will tell you differently. Who's right? I guess it depends on your situation.

A hybrid bull on purebred cows might work if the breeds making up the bull are similar. But then you lose the maternal heterosis that works so well for most people. IMHO a purebred bull on
  • crossbred cows is still the way to
go.
mine too
 

UG

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I agree that crossbred cows of complimentary breeds are the only way to go in a commercial operation, unless your producing beef for a specific branded beef line that requires specific purebred genetics. The last numbers I saw, crossbred cows would return close to $100/year over comparable purebred cows. I don't want to leave that money on the table.

To maximize heterosis, you then need to breed these cows to a bull of a totally different genotype. For example, breed Tiger stripe cows to Angus, Gelbvieh, or Balancer bulls, depending on your end point goals.

I need to emphasize, that just because some bulls are "crossbreds" (i.e. SimAngus, Balancers, Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, etc.) doesn't make them "mutts."
 

jnowack

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I would like the see the research on uniform calf crops you mentioned. I was curious what traits used for comparison.
I'm not being sarcastic.

thanks

jnowack
 

Angus Cattle Shower

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Caustic Burno":17bbfpew said:
Angus Cattle Shower":17bbfpew said:
Caustic Burno":17bbfpew said:
ALACOWMAN":17bbfpew said:
if a crossbred bull has been bred for a certain goal their fine like a F1 bulls too a certain purebred cow. too produce whatever. other than that they have no benefit as for as the HV goes. too many breeds in the woodpile the HV starts a downward plain. this is just a cowboys veiw not fact

You got that right about the woodpile. No matter what the bull looks like a crossbred bull is a be nice poor excuse for a herd bull.
With that many in the wood pile sure to get a consistent calf crop.What a joke.

I beg to differ, Caustic. We run a Supa Baldie bull (5/8 Red Angus, 3/8 Simmental) which is a cross, we have consistent calf cr4ops each year. It is liek running crossbred cows. We found that this cross puts on more pounds, and finishes faster than any other one that we have tried. Not saying this for all crossbred bulls, but not all are benice.

Your full of be nice as a christmas turkey as you will never get cosistent calfs out of crossbreed crap. There is a lot of difference in a composite and a crossbred mut.
Takes seven generations to produce a true composite that will breed true.

Never say never-Speckle park are Heinz 57, so are Hays converter, and many other breeds. My forefathers ran bulls from their own herd, and most of the stock here are generations of that breeding, and to this day we run commercial bulls, cause you breed for selective traits. TO breed tyhe bull up to that trait is the acheived product.
 

Caustic Burno

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Angus Cattle Shower":1spyctwk said:
Caustic Burno":1spyctwk said:
Angus Cattle Shower":1spyctwk said:
Caustic Burno":1spyctwk said:
ALACOWMAN":1spyctwk said:
if a crossbred bull has been bred for a certain goal their fine like a F1 bulls too a certain purebred cow. too produce whatever. other than that they have no benefit as for as the HV goes. too many breeds in the woodpile the HV starts a downward plain. this is just a cowboys veiw not fact

You got that right about the woodpile. No matter what the bull looks like a crossbred bull is a be nice poor excuse for a herd bull.
With that many in the wood pile sure to get a consistent calf crop.What a joke.

I beg to differ, Caustic. We run a Supa Baldie bull (5/8 Red Angus, 3/8 Simmental) which is a cross, we have consistent calf cr4ops each year. It is liek running crossbred cows. We found that this cross puts on more pounds, and finishes faster than any other one that we have tried. Not saying this for all crossbred bulls, but not all are benice.

Your full of be nice as a christmas turkey as you will never get cosistent calfs out of crossbreed crap. There is a lot of difference in a composite and a crossbred mut.
Takes seven generations to produce a true composite that will breed true.

Never say never-Speckle park are Heinz 57, so are Hays converter, and many other breeds. My forefathers ran bulls from their own herd, and most of the stock here are generations of that breeding, and to this day we run commercial bulls, cause you breed for selective traits. TO breed tyhe bull up to that trait is the acheived product.

Here again the breeds you spoke of were composites breed true to produce proven results F-1's to F-1' F-2's to F-2's for seven or more generations not a crossbred mutt.
 

Angus Cattle Shower

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The origional Speckle Park was a crossbred mutt with no records-they bought it because of ti's colouring from a neighbour. And not all crossbred bulls are mutts.
 

ALACOWMAN

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Angus Cattle Shower":2i9qc47h said:
The origional Speckle Park was a crossbred mutt with no records-they bought it because of ti's colouring from a neighbour. And not all crossbred bulls are mutts.
thats right it took the original angus or hereford or simmental or charlaios too get were we got too today were ever the he!! that is. come up to the big window so we can understand what the he!! your saying other wise were right where we started ;-) and dont let me leave out the ever run down but not YET ousted brahman
 

Angus Cattle Shower

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lol. i was just stating that not all commercial bulls are mangy. I dont blame ya for not understanding, sometimes i have to think about what i said for a while before i get it. lol
 

DiamondSCattleCo

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I'm with UG on this topic. With a consistent set of F1 cows, a good hybrid bull will deliver a set of consistent, growthy calves and can be done more economically than using a purebred bull on those F1s.

As an example, I've found that my best calves are 25% Simm, 50% Shorthorn, 25% Angus. You can give or take a few percent on any of the breeds and still maintain consistency. The only way I could normally accomplish this is with Simm/Angus cows crossed to one of my purebred Shorthorns (I'm a PB Shorthorn breeder, just starting out). The issue is that I'm not a big fan of Simm/Angus cows, and prefer to have Shorthorn/Angus cows around (they keep easier, tend to be higher volume and closer to the ground). Crossing to a full Simm bull, I end up with calves that are a little too leggy, a little too slab sided, and keep a little harder, given the Simm genetics that are readily available to me in my area. However, I can use a Simm/Shorthorn cross bull, get my 3 way cross for maximum hybrid vigor, maintain consistency and increase fertility and longevity (not that I have trouble with the PB Shorthorn bulls).

Having said that, I've got some cows in the herd that were "experiments" or were simply too cheap to pass up. Either they're F2 cows with some Shorthorn in them already, or else I really don't know what they are because the original owner didn't know. I'd never even remotely consider using a hybrid on those animals, and they run with my purebred herd and bull.

Long and short of this ramble: If you know what your F1 cow herd is, a hybrid bull can help if selected carefully. If you've got cows with varying degrees of breeds, stick with a purebred.

Rod
 

ALACOWMAN

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I may get some folks riled up over this one. but a good example of too many breeds in the woodpile is the beefmaster. for example take a gert cow bred to a hereford bull. though the beefmaster has all the same mixture of breeds in her not the same percentage.the gert cow will have a more uniform calf and one i like better than the beefmaster
 

UG

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jnowack,

Thanks for the question. I don't have time to dig through all the MARC data, but the paragraph from a Harlan Ritchie article below discusses variability from composite seedstock:


What about the variability of composites?
Research at the U.S. Meat Animal Research Center (MARC), Clay Center, NE, has shown that for economically important traits controlled by many genes (quantitative traits), the amount of variation (as measured by coefficient of variation) is similar for composites and for the contributing purebreds. However, for qualitative traits that are controlled by only a few genes (e.g., color, horns, etc.), composites may exhibit considerably more variation than purebreds, depending on the specific breeds that go into the formation of a particular composite.

http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/papers/composites.html

Please note that the last sentence mentions that composite progeny may exhibit more variation on qualitative traits controlled by only a few genes (i.e. color, horns, etc.). Within several of the more popular composites (i.e. Balancers, Brangus, SimAngus) there are many homozygous polled & homozygous black bulls to chose from.

I hope this helps.
 

Kent

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ALACOWMAN":263w3qur said:
I may get some folks riled up over this one. but a good example of too many breeds in the woodpile is the beefmaster. for example take a gert cow bred to a hereford bull. though the beefmaster has all the same mixture of breeds in her not the same percentage.the gert cow will have a more uniform calf and one i like better than the beefmaster

I think the reasons for the lack of uniformity (mainly color and how much ear the calves show) have more to do with the Lasater selection criteria than how many breeds are involved. Lasater never selected for color, so the white of the Shorthorn was never eliminated as it was in the Gerts. The Hereford white face was also never fixed in the breed or eliminated, so it is sporadic. They are also a full 50% Brahman, so the amount of ear they show varies due to the segregation phenomenon. I would like to see a little more uniformity of color in them, too, but then they wouldn't be Beefmasters. :D
 

ALACOWMAN

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I see what you are saying. but still too me the strait bred of the hereford on the gert makes a great calf. its that mogrelization of the beefmaster i dont like. although i have been a brahman crossing fool myself in the past i prefer just the F1 moma 50/50
 

jnowack

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There is a difference between a crossbred/hbrid and a composite. Composites are treated like a breed and are more consistant than crossbreds. Balancers, Lim-Flex, Sim-Angus are crossbreds of varying percentages. Do not lump them in with true composites such as Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, Beefmasters, etc. People like to misuse the term composite.

quotes from Harlan Ritchie's paper below

What is a composite? A generally accepted definition would be: a population made up of two or more component breeds, designed to retain heterosis (hybrid vigor) in future generations without crossbreeding and maintained like a pure breed.


What about using crossbred (hybrid) bulls? Hybrid bulls offer an alternative method of using the composite concept.

end quote

He did not discuss the consistency of crossbreds and did not lump them in with the composite BREEDS. He did point out the levels of heterosis with different crossbreeding systems. The heterosis level of the 2 and 3 breed rotation is higher than the heterosis level of 2 and 3 breed composite. And the 4 breed compsite still has lower heterosis than a 3 breed rotation.
The rotational cross is still a simpler system that delivers more heterosis with fewer breeds used. It is easier to select cattle of similar biological type if you don't have to use as many different breeds to attain similar levels of heterosis.

thanks

jnowack
 

Kent

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ALACOWMAN":2s8ocu8f said:
I see what you are saying. but still too me the strait bred of the hereford on the gert makes a great calf. its that mogrelization of the beefmaster i dont like. although i have been a brahman crossing fool myself in the past i prefer just the F1 moma 50/50

Agree on the Gert/Hereford cross. That is one of the best cows there is in my area, where just a touch of ear in the mama cow is all you need. It's getting harder to find good Gerts around here, though. Herefords too, for that matter.
 

TxStateCowboy

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Kent":1sjgrx65 said:
ALACOWMAN":1sjgrx65 said:
I may get some folks riled up over this one. but a good example of too many breeds in the woodpile is the beefmaster. for example take a gert cow bred to a hereford bull. though the beefmaster has all the same mixture of breeds in her not the same percentage.the gert cow will have a more uniform calf and one i like better than the beefmaster

I think the reasons for the lack of uniformity (mainly color and how much ear the calves show) have more to do with the Lasater selection criteria than how many breeds are involved. Lasater never selected for color, so the white of the Shorthorn was never eliminated as it was in the Gerts. The Hereford white face was also never fixed in the breed or eliminated, so it is sporadic. They are also a full 50% Brahman, so the amount of ear they show varies due to the segregation phenomenon. I would like to see a little more uniformity of color in them, too, but then they wouldn't be Beefmasters. :D

Its all meat on the inside. You can dabble with ears and hair color all you want, but remember the point of this industry is getting beef to the people that eat it, and little more.

As a cattle producer I believe quality and health of animal (regardless of color, ears, horns, and for commercial cattlemen breed) is the goal, but uniformity should be attempted on the weights, gains, quality and quantity of meat, and hardiness of your herd. Lasater understood what a cattleman's job was, and he developed a fine set of guidelines and an excellent "breed."

Only "pure breeders" need worry about the rest. What? Holstiens in my angus?? Brahma and Watusi in my longhorns? Semmi in my Limo? (that one was a joke)
 

Kent

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TSC,

I agree on the Beefmasters. I like them a lot. I don't need that much Brahman influence where I live, but they are fine cattle. And you are right, they are consistent where it counts.
 

ALACOWMAN

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well i wish i could share yall's enthusiasm about um. but im gonna have too pass. what worked for lasater didnt pan out for me i made the mistake of buying a reg. black one a few years ago.when they were just turning some black couldnt find a brangus too suit me swore id shoot his a$$ if caught him near my cows again.
 

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