Cows that are poor milk producers, what to do?

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In the "old days", it was always said not to keep replacement heifers out of first calf heifers. This is NO LONGER true. Used to be, heifers were bred to small, dink bulls, so that they didn't have calving problems. Now, with EPD's and better genetics, there is absolutely no need to breed heifers to dink bulls. By all rights, your heifers SHOULD be producing you the best genetics in your herd, if you are breeding cattle not multiplying cattle. Yes, a calf out of a heifer may be a little lighter weight than out of a mture cow, but the genetics should be better if you improve bulls each time.
As far as over conditioning heifers, the biggest problem is that every mammary cell that is filled with fat PRIOR to breeding, will NEVER produce milk. If an open heifer develops fat in her udder, she will NEVER be a good milk producer (at least never be as good as she should have been).
I would NEVER consider culling our heifers out of heifers. They have an equal shot at becoming a replacement as one out of a cow.

 

[Angus Cowman]

There is, to me anywy, a difference between a small calf/dink and a calf that is unthrifty and potty. The former I'll let slide the second they need to find another home.

there are still things outside of the cow that can make an unthrifty/potty calf and culling the cow isn't the solution especially if the cow has raised good solid calves before and this is her first unthrifty calf
Environment factors can cause alot of problems in calves that has nothing to do with the cow or her ability to raise a good one

 

[rockridgecattle]

By all rights, your heifers SHOULD be producing you the best genetics in your herd, if you are breeding cattle not multiplying cattle. Yes, a calf out of a heifer may be a little lighter weight than out of a mture cow, but the genetics should be better if you improve bulls each time.
As far as over conditioning heifers, the biggest problem is that every mammary cell that is filled with fat PRIOR to breeding, will NEVER produce milk. If an open heifer develops fat in her udder, she will NEVER be a good milk producer (at least never be as good as she should have been).
I would NEVER consider culling our heifers out of heifers. They have an equal shot at becoming a replacement as one out of a cow.

Agreed

 

[rockridgecattle]

there are still things outside of the cow that can make an unthrifty/potty calf and culling the cow isn't the solution especially if the cow has raised good solid calves before and this is her first unthrifty calf
Environment factors can cause alot of problems in calves that has nothing to do with the cow or her ability to raise a good one

Respectfully i have to agree to a point but disagree to this statement based on my experiences.
I agreed because enviroment does influence our end product. I disagree because the enviroment factors will be the same for every animal in the herd. So, the cattle should wean at the same percentile as if the enviroment is perfect. By this i mean the general wean weights will be down, but if calf "A" weaned out at the top of the herd in good times, calf A" should wean out the same in bad times...at the top of the herd. Probably a lower wean weight, but still at the top of the class so to speak. If calf "A" does not, it mean the cow is a poor converter of what food is available. Bad times, weather, dollar what have you are good because they expose the animals which do not make the grade and lower our profit margin.

 

[Angus Cowman]

there are still things outside of the cow that can make an unthrifty/potty calf and culling the cow isn't the solution especially if the cow has raised good solid calves before and this is her first unthrifty calf
Environment factors can cause alot of problems in calves that has nothing to do with the cow or her ability to raise a good one

Respectfully i have to agree to a point but disagree to this statement based on my experiences.
I agreed because enviroment does influence our end product. I disagree because the enviroment factors will be the same for every animal in the herd. So, the cattle should wean at the same percentile as if the enviroment is perfect. By this i mean the general wean weights will be down, but if calf "A" weaned out at the top of the herd in good times, calf A" should wean out the same in bad times...at the top of the herd. Probably a lower wean weight, but still at the top of the class so to speak. If calf "A" does not, it mean the cow is a poor converter of what food is available. Bad times, weather, dollar what have you are good because they expose the animals which do not make the grade and lower our profit margin.

I guess I should clarify the "environment" statement
and should of said outside elements ie... difficult birth causing stress, inclimate weather at time of calving, a slow starting calf due to infection or stress of some sort that didn't get noticed in time or did get noticed and treated but still slowed the growth of the calf and stressed that weakened the calfs immune system and therefore caused the calf to be behind or never catch up, a slight respiratory infection and so on and so on the list could go on forever
so culling on the FIRST unthrifty calf is not an absolute that it won't happen again that is why I almost always give the cow a 2nd chance

 

[Nesikep]

I had a heifer this year who could hardly feed her calf.. I'm keeping her because I didn't have any room on the truck left, maybe she does better next year, but for certain I'm not keeping anything from her, her sister looks to be similar, so the same will go from here, and I'm not keeping anything more from their mother (despite she raises good calves and is a beauty). the mother of them raised a set of twins this year, didn't lose condition, and both were around 400-450 lbs

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

I have always been told by older successful cattlemen and women( mother-in-law) that Heifers don't always grow good calves the first time. I keep replacements from good cows and try to follow their genetics back and keep only the very best from there. But sometimes my heifers don't do well. I give them the second year (if I have the grass) to prove themselves. Bad calf the next year and they go. Good or bad? what are your alls thoughts?

I've kept three heifers out of what I consider my very best cow. The dam has the best udder in the pasture for a beef cow. The heifers she produces do not have enough milk. Everything coming out of that best cow is now terminal.

I have heard that too much fat in a heifer calf can interfere with development. That may be the case here.

As far as any of the others in the herd, a cow that cannot produce a top quality calf cannot stay. You're money ahead to replace that cow.

May be the bull he could have a low milk EPD.

 

[tripleBfarms]

I've got a few animals that drop nice looking calves and then don't produce enough milk to really give them the start that they need. The calves end up looking crappy and malnourished because, well, because they're malnourished I'd imagine.

Any solutions to a problem like this....aside from the sale barn, that is.

There are several solutions other than the sale barn. Burger, steak, chops, roast, ribs, and brisket just to name a few. :tiphat:

 

[backhoeboogie]

I've kept three heifers out of what I consider my very best cow. The dam has the best udder in the pasture for a beef cow. The heifers she produces do not have enough milk. Everything coming out of that best cow is now terminal.

May be the bull he could have a low milk EPD.

Yes you'd consider that. But we're talking a whole herd here, multiple sires, and only one limited cow. No other retained heifer out of any bull I've ran has had this problem. I had to part with bulls because I retained so many heifers out of them.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Braford, That low milk EPD was a thought but I checked the other heifers out of that year group and their calves were average for the herd. It seems we have about one a year that doesn'tdo as good as the others but most times their second calves are better and so far every calf has made us money. Takes tme to get to the great weaning weight point. We cull heavy but mostly on the cow side. I keep two or three heifers a year and my brother-in-law does the same. This is our of about 25-30 a year.

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

Braford, That low milk EPD was a thought but I checked the other heifers out of that year group and their calves were average for the herd. It seems we have about one a year that doesn'tdo as good as the others but most times their second calves are better and so far every calf has made us money. Takes tme to get to the great weaning weight point. We cull heavy but mostly on the cow side. I keep two or three heifers a year and my brother-in-law does the same. This is our of about 25-30 a year.

For what I have seen alot of first calvers have small calves the first year. But by the second year the should milk better and wean a bigger calf.
I have also noticed that it depends on the age of the heifer at calving.
The cows i have now are still young and I only keep heifers that stand out from the group. That is usually one or two.
I have the grass and i can afford for them to have their first calves at 3 vs. 2.
I do not feed my heifers that I keep or calves that I sell. They eat grass and that is it. They may get an occasional bag of cubes. And by three they are around 1200 lbs and mature to 1500 pounds on grass alone. And the 3 year old heifers (brangus and baford cross) milk like dairy cows in the amount of milk they give and grow calves tha wean at the same weights as the mature cows. This goes for my cross breed commercial cattle.

 

[TexasBred]

Glad you can wait for three years for a calf. 99% of folks can't. But it makes for good bull at the barber shop or coffee shop. And if your grass fed ladies milk like dairy cattle they MUST be dairy cattle.

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

Glad you can wait for three years for a calf. 99% of folks can't. But it makes for good bull at the barber shop or coffee shop. And if your grass fed ladies milk like dairy cattle they MUST be dairy cattle.

No they are brangus or braford cross.

Some only milk like this for the 1st month.
I have a few that milk heavily during the whole lactation and they are brangus cross out of brangus type cows and a registered brangus bull( i bought these heifers and none of the cows he had milked like this it has to be the bull)

My braford cross bull puts milk into his heifers.
No dairy cattle just a heck of a bull.
The mothers of my braford cross cows did not milk very well so the very drastic increase came from the bull, because no matter what kind of cows all his offspring milked heavy .

He is black whiteface with a hump and is around 2700 lbs.(grass fed his whole life). His heifers mature to be 1500 lbs on grass only.
I am not totally sure what he is. His mother came with the baldies i think she may have been an f1 she was dark brintled and the bull was born with a hump on his back red white face. He is now black white face, but 98% of his calves are whiteface. my best heifer from him was dark red with darker colored legs. She was the biggest thickest cow I had and milked very heavy. :shock: She was struck by lightning 2 weeks after having her first baby.

 

[Lucky_P]

It's an established fact that 1st-calf heifers will routinely raise a smaller calf than a mature cow. Breed associations have adjustment factors for age of dam built into the programs for calculating EPDs.
For example, from the AAA program, a 2-yr old heifer's bull or heifer calves would be expected to be 79 & 69 lbs lighter at weaning, respectively, than the calves raised by a 5 yr old cow with the same genetics, bred to the same bull.
http://www.angus.org/Performance/AHIR/P ... amAdj.aspx

Perceived less than desirable performance of a 1st-calf heifer's calf is not necessarily a reason to cull her - she SHOULD do a better job with subsequent calves - but if not, perhaps she does need a ride to town.