cowdogs - what to look for?

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milkmaid

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I'm looking at getting a dog later this summer; mostly looking for a companion and obedience/agility prospect (I like competing and showing), but also looking for a working cowdog. What kind of questions do I specifically need to ask the breeder about working ability? I mostly trail cattle from horseback - bringing the cows home to winter pasture we travel about 24 miles - but also sort cattle in the alleyway and I'm told a dog that can work the chute is helpful too. How about some thoughts from those of you who have cowdogs and know what you like in a cowdog?

The pup I'm looking at is a 7 month old Aussie male, breeder is willing to keep him until whenever I can take him; be at least May due to my housing situation at school, might be August due to a summer internship I accepted. I figure that's old enough to evaluate the pup himself too - what should I ask about him?

Thanks-
 
One thing I want to see for sure is both parents and I want to see them actually work not just at trials herding.. We couldn't see Tex work as he was still recuperating from back surgery but because of who he was and his background we already new that he was a real stock dog not just a world champion trial dog. We did get to see Kia in action and she worked exactly how I want Nikki to work..
 
Get a dog from someone that has been doing more with the parents than you expect to be doing with yours. And make sure there are generations of dogs(actually working) behind the parents.

Careful with the Aussie-- very few real working lines left.

Don't get sold on buying for the agilty/obedience stuff-- most good working dogs can do decent at those- very few bred for those activities can work well too.
Do not do much with the rigid obedience till you get the dog working. It can get them screwed up looking to you to tell them what to do instead of following their instincts then looking to you for help or instruction.
 
Howdyjabo":8v9f1axf said:
Get a dog from someone that has been doing more with the parents than you expect to be doing with yours. And make sure there are generations of dogs(actually working) behind the parents.

Careful with the Aussie-- very few real working lines left.

Don't get sold on buying for the agilty/obedience stuff-- most good working dogs can do decent at those- very few bred for those activities can work well too.
Do not do much with the rigid obedience till you get the dog working. It can get them screwed up looking to you to tell them what to do instead of following their instincts then looking to you for help or instruction.

This is super important. Make sure you let the dog's brain kick in, then put a handle on them. They should be bred to "go," you teach them the "whoa."

If the pup is going to be 7+ months old by the time you get him, make sure you can see him work before you take him home too. He'll be by no means polished at that age, but he should be showing lots of "want to" and trying to figure things out by himself. I agree with everyone that said you want to see the parents work, and make sure they are of a working style like you want to employ. A cracker-jack dog that works differently from what you prefer will leave you disappointed.
 
Thanks for the input. I'll be talking to the breeder of the pup's dam and owner of a full sibling to the pup (same person) tomorrow, figure it may give me some more insight into the potential of this pup. The breeder of the dam trials and works all her Aussies; her website has plenty of WTCH dogs listed, so it looks like they can work, question is what this pup is like.

What do y'all think about getting a half-grown pup... am I going to have issues with him bonding to me, or will it not be a problem?

As far as watching this pup work; I really know nothing about herding dogs beyond the books I've read and the YouTube videos I've watched. :p (I used to raise and train Labs quite a bit, but Aussies are totally new to me.) What exactly am I looking for or wanting to see a 7+ month old pup doing when he's put out with cows?
 
Trialing with letters awarded- SCREAMS of hobby herding.
If you can't see them doing substantial real farm work too I would pass. and I would pass unless I saw them working untrained stock as well as trained stock.
Again look for a breeder doing a higher level of real work than you anticipating needing in your dog.
Again- don't be looking as hard at the pup as you are looking at its working relatives.

Older dog is not a problem- just spend a month making it hang with you as much as possible.

Heres an article I wrote that is going to be fixed up and published in the Stockdog Journal
It will be followed by another article with several people expanding on the "how" and "why" following it.

Growing up to be a Stockdog

The most important thing you can to is to pen or crate the pup when not supervised-

Do not let your new pup /young dog have total freedom- it should be bonded to you for most of the good things in life. Spend time with your pup exposing it to new situations away from stock. Spend time teaching it manners, to think and reason and to respond to pressure. In most instances persistence in the beginning will pay off more than quick use of force. But at some point we may have to draw a line and insist on the pup doing what we know it already knows how to do or to quit a particular behavior or choice.
We can be our dog's best friend but we always have to be in control and the dog has to know and respect that.

Don't overwhelm your pup. Try and just introduce one or two new things at a time- then let them sleep on it and try them again. Do not ask for the pups to do something that they are not mature enough (mentally or physically to do). When that's consistent I add another new lesson.
And Try and teach opposites close to each other
- Don't get on the couch / get on the couch now that I tell you to you can.
- Heel quietly behind me / now go run around freely.
- Don't bark/ bark (actually helps with chronic barkers)
- Come / stay
- Play wild / be relaxed

Avoid rigid obedience training for now; we don't want the dog so focused on pleasing us that it doesn't respond to stock right for looking at us for all the answers. I want to limit the pups options of answers so that it finds the right one pretty quick- but I want the dog to use its mind not my "rigid training" to come up with the answers.

Avoid chase/pull games and wild silliness games unless you understand control/pressure and are applying it at the same time. If you must play have structured games like:

-Sit before meals and don't touch the food till given permission
-Sit somewhere and wait patiently till given permission to move
-Jump up on things and sit there quietly till given permission to move
-Get in and out of crate or cage or truck on command and then on command from a distance.
- Make them sit in the crate with the door open or on the truck until told to come out/off.
-Play with a toy and teach the dog to leave it (quit playing) on command
-Throw a ball and make the dog wait to go get it

Most of training a working dog is balancing opposites-- fast /slow, quiet/enthusiastic, stay out/come in, bite/don't bite, push/don't push. Anything you can do to get your pup to react to different inputs and switch gears will help you latter.

Most people don't need to have a leash on their little pups to begin with, if they have a safe place that allows for some freedom.
Teach the pup that the best place in the world is with you. At some point most pups will start to get independent and you will need to do more to enforce the idea of staying with you.
Don't leave the pup (or dog for that matter) out for long if you are only keeping half an eye on it that just asking for bad habits or trouble to develop/happen.


Teach the pup vocal and physical cues of your moods-- deep growly noises means I am unhappy and quit what you are doing. High yippee noises make them feel good. Teach the pup about physical cues making them give to pressure and learn avoidance. Let it know there are rules and punishments are uncomfortable, but they can trust that the discomfort will stop as soon as they figure out how to make it stop. Be very aware of limiting the pups options so it can figure out quick what it needs to do to stop the discomfort. Then back it up with happy stuff to reinforce the lesson and understanding.




When reprimanding the pup be on guard for it to need more reprimanding but don't hover just waiting for it- if you are hovering you are just asking the dog to do something different at the very moment its doing what you want. Example- you finally get the dog to lie down, stand up straight and ignore the dog while watching it out of the corner of your eye casually. If you bore your eyes into it daring it to make you mad again its going to get the idea something is still wrong and look for the answer to make it right and will more than likely get back up- and this time its your fault and punishing the dog for doing it is incorrect.

If you see the pup developing stranger issues and you want a friendly dog- make sure that you have the pup spend fun time around strangers. If you want your dog to be protective limit its exposure to strangers. If someone comes over put the pup up- it will begin to associate visitors with something being wrong. No guarantees either way, some dogs are just going to be who they are no matter what we do.

Do expose your dog to increasingly stressful situations. Traveling, meeting strangers under control, meeting other dogs and being respectful of them. Walking in mud, and on slippery floors, hearing loud noises and not reacting, being around horses and leaving them alone, being around kids running around and not reacting. If they are going to be worked around electric fences let them learn what they are.

Do not let your dog develop ANY obsessive behaviors- every time they do something that you think is cute ask yourself if you would still think its cute if a 40+lb dog was doing it non- stop and cared for doing nothing else. Stop it right now. Examples are chasing shadows, vacuum cleaners, kids, flowing water, bugs birds ect. . Silliness is not something to be tolerated unless you can stop it on command. Jumping on you and mouthing your hands should be considered silliness.
The most important obsessive danger is to keep your pup from watching stock obsessively.
It should not be running fences, barking or lunging to get at stock
Either control the dog or keep it away from seeing stock.




Teach the pup manners- the more manners you teach them the better. Sit, load, stay, a loose heel, recall and patience exercises are all good. A lie down is critical; a dog that will not freely lie down is a dog that is not respecting you.
Teach your pup to go thru gates and doors correctly. They should wait while you open and go thru then follow behind you as you turn to close the door and wait at your heels for you to turn again- and again follow the turn to stay behind you.
Pups should not be allowed to cross in front of you- it will be handy latter when you go to stock and it keeps you from tripping over your dog.
Chains (crates and pens) are for sitting quiet and relaxed. Anything else needs to be stopped.
Be on guard for the pup/dog anticipating commands; make them wait for the actual command. For example: Waiting while you open the kennel door fully then going in when you tell them to load.



Teach a pup to give to pressure. A simple example of giving to pressure would be that the pup gets on the wrong side of a tree while leashed- I just keep pressure on it so it stays snugged up to the tree till it thinks of coming back around. The pup was in total control of the release of pressure. Next time it feels pressure it will be thinking of ways to release the pressure.

Another first exposure to pressure is to chain it and let it learn that it can't get away. When it quits pulling the chain quits pulling. Do not use a rope, once a dog chews thru and gets loose it will chew thru everything you tie it with (it will even try chains). When it quits fighting the chain let it off. After the pup is broke to a chain, do not allow barking while on the chain.

Do not be afraid to let your dog work thru confusion and stress, that's the whole point of most things we do with a pup.
After three failed tries with an agitated dog that is trying, rethink the situation and either limit its choices more, change your tactics, or change the senerio somehow. But do not give up. A pup that's not trying (sulked up and definitely not agitated) out persist it and give it more reasons to look for a solution. Again be ready to limit options and change tactics.

There is no set in stone answers to dealing with or training your pup- they are all different and so are we. One constant is that nagging is bad- do what you have to do to get what you want, and then be done with it. Nagging is much more abusive than a one time severe Negative reinforcement that they knew why it happened.
 
milkmaid":5q4uvmmg said:
I'm looking at getting a dog later this summer; mostly looking for a companion and obedience/agility prospect (I like competing and showing), but also looking for a working cowdog. What kind of questions do I specifically need to ask the breeder about working ability? I mostly trail cattle from horseback - bringing the cows home to winter pasture we travel about 24 miles - but also sort cattle in the alleyway and I'm told a dog that can work the chute is helpful too. How about some thoughts from those of you who have cowdogs and know what you like in a cowdog?

The pup I'm looking at is a 7 month old Aussie male, breeder is willing to keep him until whenever I can take him; be at least May due to my housing situation at school, might be August due to a summer internship I accepted. I figure that's old enough to evaluate the pup himself too - what should I ask about him?

Thanks-

Howdyjabo has given you some real good advice and she knows her business so i can't add anything.
i am partial to border collies and i don't think you can go wrong with them.(cowdog lines), but they are more of a gather type dogs.
they can be trained to go off balance and push cattle but their instict is to go to balance and gather.
i think Howdyjabo (karen) has dogs for sale.
 
"but their instict is to go to balance and gather."

I think thats what messes people up with Border Collies- you have to harness the going to balance and gathering(with most) before you can do other things with them. And you have to realize their default is always going to be going to the head(on a good one)- so if you want something different you have to negotiate for it at first. And they are sensitive and fast learners- you can teach them the wrong lesson accidentally as fast and as thoroughly as a good lesson on purpose.
I rarely use mine during work for single long gathers - I do short off to the side half gathers and alot of driving. If I started a dog trying to do what I do with my older dogs it would just frustrate them and me.
Once you understand how and why a Border Collies brain(instincts) works they are pretty easy to manipulate.

If you do think of getting a Border Collie get one from cattledog lines- there are some sheepdogs that will make a good cattledog but they are getting harder and harder to find (at least on the East Coast)

There are getting to be some really good Kelpie lines around- I am curious about them and if farmers could make use of them easier(not as much heading fanaticism to deal with- but enough to get the work done).
Might not have the potential to be a Cadillac, but farmers need trucks more anyhow.
 
I will stress though about actually seeing the parents WORK..not from working lines..but actually work stock.

being this pup is an aussie, have his parents been health tested at all? its not a guarantee, but it certainly can help eleviate big bills in the future..main thing Id be concerned about would be hip dysplasia.

IMO, a strong obidience base..regarding listening to the owner..is very important..Im not talking about looking to the owner for guidance..but following directions IMMEDIATLY in all situations..(down means down NOW for example).

Howdy pretty much gave you alot of good info...:)

its interesting to see the ways different cowdogs work..my heeler didnt work the way my aussie/bc does..she works like an aussie..and watching a BC work..well, they are definantly different then the heeler and aussie.

dont worry about the older pup..I got my girl about 7 months old and she is glued to my hip..perhaps abit to much, as she wont listen to my husband..(oh yeah, it irks husband badly)..expose your pup to EVERYTHING..I like to take mine anywhere I can.

as far as training..I would look for a mentor..someone who has been training dogs for along time who can perhaps help you with your pup.
 
I hope I don't look too much like a fool here. We work cur dogs, so the terminology you guys are using is a bit foreign to me. By saying "gathering" what do you mean? When I use that term I expect my dogs to find cattle, bunch them up, and circle; baying like fiends, until I get there to start pushing them around. By going to balance and gather what does that mean? Sorry for the newbie questions.
 
Thanks for the input. To answer some of the questions in the last couple emails, pup I'm looking at is AKC and ASCA registered, both parents have hips and eyes OFA and CERF checked as normal, sire is 13 and still doing well and still works cows. Owner has about 40 head. As to training and health testing; I used to raise/train/show Labs, put a few titles on my dogs, everything had hips/eyes/elbows checked and certified. I'm new to Aussies but I'd still expect the basic health testing (hips/eyes) on the parents of any pup I'm looking at, and this dog has that and being AKC/ASCA reg makes it easy to compete in plenty of different areas. Is it a hobby? well, to an extent - but I found with Labs that training for trials made the dog better in the field when I went hunting.

Now, when you talk about watching a dog work - you actually know what good work vs. bad work LOOKS like. I have no idea what I'm looking for and what would make me be impressed with a dog vs not impressed with a dog. I know what I like in a hunting dog, but I have no idea what I'd like in a herding dog. Advice?

Here's a pic of the pup I'm considering at the moment...

Bear_Pics_001.jpg
 
Just get the pup MM I am sure you won't be disapointed. He is a nice looking dog.

Nikki showed her true workability yesterday at 4 and 1/2 months, she gathered the bulls and then held them while I fed them.. Without being asked BTW... :roll: Today she wanted to gather all of the cows and move them to one area , and then spent alot of time in her kennel as she did not have permission to do that. Her work instinct is there I just need to hone in on it and really step on her with discipline as she is not my baby puppy anymore.

I guarantee once you get him around you and the cattle you will get him going in the right direction..
 
If you go to our website there are videos of dogs working at all levels,

Cur Dogs have a whole different style and goal than the gathering breeds. ( good)Gathering dogs will go around and immediately want to take the stock somewhere. If I was going after unbroke wild loose cattle I would want some good cur dogs. Luckily I am not working that kind of stock--
When things get wild I don't get adrenalin rushes-- I get panic attacks.
 
I'll take a look at the videos. When we get wild, unbroke stock my immediate reaction is "YEEEE-HAW!" I know our dogs have a totally different style of work, but they suit us. We don't get to go after many dog-broke cattle, we're almost always dog-breaking momma cows while trying to get them penned. A cur dog that tries to drive stock is worse than useless, especially in that situation.
 
A cur dog that tries to drive stock is worse than useless, especially in that situation.

I agree even with a Border Collie-- thru training you can teach them just to hold till the stock is settled and grouped enough to move. But a Border Collie with no training (unless its one of the one in a million) will try and move them too quick and have useless fights or scattered animals. They are only dogs and have to outthink to control cattle- they certainly cannot out muscle them.

I envy people that get that YEEEHAWW feeling- but on the other hand my stockmanship is very advanced because I hate to get into OH#########(my version of yeeehaww) situations :)
 
LOL! Ours haven't figured out that they can't out-muscle cattle. Thankfully we haven't run into a group of cattle that have figured it out either. I think I understand the difference in style a bit better. A lot of folks would refer to a cur dog as a "herding" dog because they work cattle. They aren't though. They simply bunch and keep control of the front. I like them because they are so instinctive for me to work with. I'm new to the cowdog game, but have worked, sorted and penned cattle without dogs for close to twenty years before I got dogs. It's relatively easy for somebody who KNOWS cattle to work with good cur dogs... no special training or instructions are needed. They learn the rest on the go. That said, some of what your dogs can do, I have to do instead.

They both have their place. Watching a really good Border Collie trial (I've only watched the sheepdog trials on TV) is truly impressive. Thanks for helping me understand a bit better.
 
You just can't go wrong with a Border Collie. They herd with pride and enjoy it too. Smart as a whip (understands every word I say), loving, loyal and a great friend!
Mine is going on twelve years old, and she still loves chasing the cows, when I let her. :nod:
 

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