cow tax revisited

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dun

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The Environmental Protection Agency has issued an advance notice of proposed rulemaking seeking public comment on whether it is appropriate to regulate greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from automobiles under the Clean Air Act.

This may sound like a good idea. But, in order to regulate automobile emissions, the EPA would first have to make a finding that greenhouse gases endanger public health and safety and should be classified as a “pollutant.”

Therein lies the problem for agriculture.

Once the endangerment finding is made, other provisions of the Clean Air Act are automatically triggered, creating much broader regulation of other sectors of the economy, including agriculture. One consequence would be a cow and pig tax.

That’s because if an endangerment finding is made, Title V of the Clean Air Act is triggered. Title V requires that any entity emitting more than 100 tons per year of a regulated pollutant must obtain a permit in order to continue to operate. EPA has no choice but to require these permits once an endangerment finding is made.

USDA has stated that any operation with more than 25 dairy cows, 50 beef cattle or 200 hogs emits more than 100 tons of carbon and would have to obtain permits under Title V in order to continue to operate if GHG are regulated. According to USDA statistics, this would cover about 99 percent of dairy production, over 90 percent of beef production and over 95 percent of all hog production in the United States.

The amounts of the tax can vary from state to state. The EPA has a “presumptive minimum rate” for Title V permits of $43.75 for this year. If a state charged this rate, the cow tax for dairy would be $175 per cow, for beef cattle $87.50 per head, and a little more than $20 per pig.

EPA has requested public comments on this advance notice. Comments are due by Friday, Nov. 28.

Send comments to:

Air and Radiation Docket and Information Center
Environmental Protection Agency, Mail code: 2822T
1200 Pennsylvania Ave., NW.
Washington, DC 20460.
RE: Docket ID No. EPA-HQ-OAR-2008-0318

In addition, write or call your Congressional delegation and tell them to prevent the imposition of a cow tax and a pig tax that would occur by the regulation of greenhouse gases through the Clean Air Act

Source: Oregon Department of Agriculture and the American Farm Bureau Federation
 

Nesikep

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wow... envirocops are going to be the end of farming.

I think the thresholds are a little low for the head counts.. I could see it being possible for huge operations, and would help little guys out, but anyone here knows that a herd of 50 head of beef cows eating bunchgrass won't create a living for a person, nor emit much GHG's, dairy cows eating rich fooddo produce more, but I think there should at least be a clause in there that limits the tax to the income per head, as well as the density in cows/pigs per acre, since the 'size of an operation' doesn't really matter, it's the density that does, as 200 head of beef cattle spread over 10,000 acres is one thing, and 200 head of dairy cattle on 10 acres is an entirely different story.
 

Wewild

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dun":1j21eeez said:
USDA has stated that any operation with more than 25 dairy cows, 50 beef cattle or 200 hogs emits more than 100 tons of carbon and would have to obtain permits under Title V in order to continue to operate if GHG are regulated. According to USDA statistics, this would cover about 99 percent of dairy production, over 90 percent of beef production and over 95 percent of all hog production in the United States.

I thought the average beef farm was at about 25 head.

It sounds like BS. If it ain't it won't pass.

Where is the USDA link as one can't be to sure.

Never mind. Here is a link to a bill to exempt.

http://www.agriview.com/articles/2008/1 ... tock04.txt
 

ddg1263

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Guys I am sorry that I bought some cows and got into the cow business. Everything I touch just turns into ashes! If they impose this tax on our cows we will defiantly be forced out of business. We can not compete with other countries who are not even thinking about trashing their own cattle industry. I still can not get over how people create ways to put people out of business in America. Instead of America being the land of opportunity, it is turning into the land of laws to favor foreigners. I think a more appropriate phrase would be America is the land of opportunity to buy foreign goods. It is already hard enough to scratch out a worthless dollar from raising beef. Well at least I have said my peace.
 

HerefordSire

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Red Bull Breeder":2mltvloy said:
So if you ran a 24 cow dairy and 49 head beef operation would you still pay the tax??

According to the text you can add one to your totals because of the keywords "more than". By the way, I was thinking the same thing except adding sheep, goats, buffalo and any other ruminant I can generate revenue on.
 

Brandonm22

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ddg1263":3v9orx3r said:
Guys I am sorry that I bought some cows and got into the cow business. Everything I touch just turns into ashes! If they impose this tax on our cows we will defiantly be forced out of business. We can not compete with other countries who are not even thinking about trashing their own cattle industry. I still can not get over how people create ways to put people out of business in America. Instead of America being the land of opportunity, it is turning into the land of laws to favor foreigners. I think a more appropriate phrase would be America is the land of opportunity to buy foreign goods. It is already hard enough to scratch out a worthless dollar from raising beef. Well at least I have said my peace.

Well if they exempt everybody under 49 beef cows, I can work around this one. I can have 49 cows, my Mother can have 49 cows, we can start an S-Corp (or two) that owns 49 cows, my Grandparents' estate can own 49 cows, I probably could marry one of those pretty Latinas at McDonalds and she could own 49 cows (and owe me a mortgage on her cows), my brother's 3 year old son could own 49 cows (kept in a trust managed by me until he is 49). I will be an extremely rich man long before I run out of loopholes.
 

Wewild

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Brandonm22":takus2sx said:
Well if they exempt everybody under 49 beef cows, I can work around this one. I can have 49 cows, my Mother can have 49 cows, we can start an S-Corp (or two) that owns 49 cows, my Grandparents' estate can own 49 cows, I probably could marry one of those pretty Latinas at McDonalds and she could own 49 cows (and owe me a mortgage on her cows), my brother's 3 year old son could own 49 cows (kept in a trust managed by me until he is 49). I will be an extremely rich man long before I run out of loopholes.

Good post. That was the way it was done when we had a quota on cotton production around here. Sometimes it was just good friends that owned a portion of your crop.
 

HerefordSire

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They will word the legal documents to include ownership interests. If you are convicted of ownership deception, at least you will go to a Federal penitentiary where there is good air conditioning and heat, and a much more educated white collar crowd to date.
 

Brandonm22

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"Good post. That was the way it was done when we had a quota on cotton production around here. Sometimes it was just good friends that owned a portion of your crop."

Peanuts were the same way.
 

Wewild

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HerefordSire":3in8yv3i said:
They will word the legal documents to include ownership interests. If you are convicted of ownership deception, at least you will go to a Federal penitentiary where there is good air conditioning and heat, and a much more educated white collar crowd to date.

Maybe we will leave the friends out then. Or maybe there will be the same verbal contract that made it so back then.
 

HerefordSire

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I would rather sell cattle to the threshhold, pick up some other ruminant types, and be straight (not gay). I like to drink with my buddies, but I don't have slumber parties with 'em. I think the relatives would be the ones I worry about the most. Heck, you can't trust anyone these days. Trusting days are gone. People will save their own skin. How many martyrs do you know (trick question)? :mrgreen:
 

Brandonm22

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HerefordSire":2k00shli said:
They will word the legal documents to include ownership interests. If you are convicted of ownership deception, at least you will go to a Federal penitentiary where there is good air conditioning and heat, and a much more educated white collar crowd to date.

The key words there are "If you are convicted". The law has not been written yet so no one can say what is or is not legal under it. A C-corp can own the cows and they can pay me a management fee. I don't know why I can't manage cows for more than one C-Corp. If the C-corp NEVER makes money, thats not my fault. Mother's cows may just need a whole lot more hay, feed, minerals, and fertilizer than my cows do and maybe she just likes to vaccinate her cows more than I vaccinate mine. I own no share at all of her cows. If the government REALLY REALLY wants to put me in jail bad enough, they really don't need a reason. However you can't spend your whole life paralyzed by fear that what you are doing MIGHT be construed as being borderline illegal (you certainly couldn't fill out your taxes like that). All you can do is be aware of the law, TRY to follow "the letter of the law", don't go around bragging about how many cows (acres or money) you have, be very respectful and courteous to everybody (esp govt agents), try to be friendly to your Congressman and your state reps, and pay your attorney bill every month.
 

Wewild

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HerefordSire":149w1jgg said:
I would rather sell cattle to the threshhold, pick up some other ruminant types, and be straight (not gay). I like to drink with my buddies, but I don't have slumber parties with 'em. I think the relatives would be the ones I worry about the most. Heck, you can't trust anyone these days. Trusting days are gone. People will save their own skin. How many martyrs do you know (trick question)? :mrgreen:

Thanks for a Reinforcement of my thoughts on your last 3 sentences before the last one.

I like to drink a beer as well. You kinda lost me on the gay stuff.

I think or flp will handle the situation even if it passes. No one in their right mind would think doing that kinda price increase to beef. It just shows who we have elected into office.

I have never met someone who has become martyr personally. Doesn't seem that you could know one as they would be dead. Unless claimed a special walk I guess.
 

Brandonm22

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Wewild":hopw2ah4 said:
HerefordSire":hopw2ah4 said:
They will word the legal documents to include ownership interests. If you are convicted of ownership deception, at least you will go to a Federal penitentiary where there is good air conditioning and heat, and a much more educated white collar crowd to date.

Maybe we will leave the friends out then. Or maybe there will be the same verbal contract that made it so back then.

I am going off memory here so I could be wrong; but there was never really a trust element to the old quotas (do we still have quotas??). Every farmer under the program had a quota they were allowed to grow under the program. When they got old, wanted to concentrate on their cows or their deer hunting, or wanted to grow something else they rented out their quota to their neighbor who wanted to grow more than he was quotad for. I THINK (dangerous word) the quotas were LEGALLY transferable and tradable. Maybe your carbon credits will also be LEGALLY tranferable and tradable. We could get to the point where your local power plant may be buying people's cattle growing rights to decrease their own carbon taxes (God help us all).
 

Wewild

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Brandonm22":3bjj24hx said:
The key words there are "If you are convicted". The law has not been written yet so no one can say what is or is not legal under it. A C-corp can own the cows and they can pay me a management fee. I don't know why I can't manage cows for more than one C-Corp. If the C-corp NEVER makes money, thats not my fault. Mother's cows may just need a whole lot more hay, feed, minerals, and fertilizer than my cows do and maybe she just likes to vaccinate her cows more than I vaccinate mine. I own no share at all of her cows. If the government REALLY REALLY wants to put me in jail bad enough, they really don't need a reason. However you can't spend your whole life paralyzed by fear that what you are doing MIGHT be construed as being borderline illegal (you certainly couldn't fill out your taxes like that). All you can do is be aware of the law, TRY to follow "the letter of the law", don't go around bragging about how many cows (acres or money) you have, be very respectful and courteous to everybody (esp govt agents), try to be friendly to your Congressman and your state reps, and pay your attorney bill every month.

Good post. Better said than I am capable.
 

HerefordSire

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Brandon...It is the spirit of the proposed law. It is not worth going to the pen for tax evasion. Even if you don't get caught or if you find a legal loophole, and the guy next door to you is limited because he lacks your family's resources or intelligence or guts, etc., how would you feel with that hanging over your head. I want a clear conscience. I can't afford anything else than a clear conscience.

Besides, they can paper trail your funds all the way to the church offering if they wanted.
 

Wewild

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Brandonm22":2e8p9zy6 said:
I am going off memory here so I could be wrong; but there was never really a trust element to the old quotas (do we still have quotas??). Every farmer under the program had a quota they were allowed to grow under the program. When they got old, wanted to concentrate on their cows or their deer hunting, or wanted to grow something else they rented out their quota to their neighbor who wanted to grow more than he was quotad for. I THINK (dangerous word) the quotas were LEGALLY transferable and tradable. Maybe your carbon credits will also be LEGALLY tranferable and tradable. We could get to the point where your local power plant may be buying people's cattle growing rights to decrease their own carbon taxes (God help us all).


My memory recalls that an individual could only plant so much cotton in his or her name. That having been said, I recall seeing arial photos with the approved planters on them. I can't recall what the allotment was for each. I can't recall the man who did it either.
 

Wewild

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HerefordSire":2xgeilhu said:
Brandon...It is the spirit of the proposed law. It is not worth going to the pen for tax evasion.

Trick question. How many folks have gone to the federal pen for tax evasion? If any why?
 

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