Cost raising cattle question

[larryshoat]

well...
i'm sure you will get a lot of replies to this tomorrow but i'll throw out a few ideas.

1) is your land paid for? YES PAID FOR MY DAD TOLD ME IN 1964 HE PURCHASED HIS FIRST 80 ACRES FOR $3300
2) thats great that you can run 1.14 cows per acre. most arent that lucky. YEP
3) a lot of people deworm twice a year
4) a lot of people vaccinate so theres another expense, NEVER VACCINATE UNLESS THE COW LOOKS OR ACTS SICK
5) most people probably feed more than 2 rolls per cow per winter. (assuming a roll of hay costs $30) FEED 5 ROLLS EVERY 2-3 DAYS
6) are you factoring in all your costs like the fuel it takes for you to drive 1.5 hours 3 or 4 times a week? I DONT COUNT THAT AS A COST, BECAUSE I HAVE TO LOOK OUT FOR OUR FAMILY HOME, SO IF I DIDNT HAVE COWS I WOULD BE THERE JUST AS MUCH ANYWAY

you have the right idea of minimizing inputs however things like not vaccinating may bite you in the fanny one day. MY DAD SAID HE NEVER VACCINTATE UNLESS THE COWS LOOK WEEK AND SICK, BUT OTHER THAN THAT WE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM, HAVENT LOST A COW OR CALF IN 5-6 YEARS
your idea of buying hay instead of growing it is a good one (generally).

Don't you think having the land and the cows paid for is a big part of your financial success? Those are the two biggest expenses involved and from what I can gather you have those cost penciled in at $0.I'm glad you have got a good situation,but I don't think it is a reasonable model to determine predictable profit margins.

 

[Brandonm2]

1) No need for herbicides
2) Fertilizer as per soil sample = $42 / acre
3) Fuel for clipping / cutting / baling = $5.00 / acre
4) Labor = Me and Wife - You tell me what quality time in hay field with wife is worth. Very Happy
Something that I didn't mention in earlier post is that I run 1 cow / 1 1/2 acre.
I baled hay this year for $6.35 per bale + Me and Wife. Very Happy
How do some of the rest of ya'll figure Ya'll's hay?
Hope that kind of clear things up. Very Happy Very Happy

Thanks Paul54 that helps alot. I don't want to beat this to death but would like to better understand it.
Your numbers sound about right to me. For bahia I'm guessing you'll get about 1.5 rolls/acre. So with cost inputs per acre of $47 (42+5) and 1.5 rolls per acre gives $31.33/roll Those numbers sound about right. So how do you figure $31.33/roll is 1/3 the cost of buying hay. Certainly you were not paying over $90/roll for cow hay.

I am going to try to get this right this time. I bale a 20 acre pasture and I get 148 bales of hay, according to my little wal-mart calculater thats about 7.4 bales per acre. I've only been doing this for about 30 yrs. so what do I know!! :shock: :shock:

Your right. We got about 9 per acre a year off of our fescue/sericea+timothy fields and something better than that off of Johnsongrass, Bahia, or Sudex fields. I couldn't crank a tractor up for that 1.5 bales an acre quote.

 

[tmaygspeara]

well...
i'm sure you will get a lot of replies to this tomorrow but i'll throw out a few ideas.

1) is your land paid for? YES PAID FOR MY DAD TOLD ME IN 1964 HE PURCHASED HIS FIRST 80 ACRES FOR $3300
2) thats great that you can run 1.14 cows per acre. most arent that lucky. YEP
3) a lot of people deworm twice a year
4) a lot of people vaccinate so theres another expense, NEVER VACCINATE UNLESS THE COW LOOKS OR ACTS SICK
5) most people probably feed more than 2 rolls per cow per winter. (assuming a roll of hay costs $30) FEED 5 ROLLS EVERY 2-3 DAYS
6) are you factoring in all your costs like the fuel it takes for you to drive 1.5 hours 3 or 4 times a week? I DONT COUNT THAT AS A COST, BECAUSE I HAVE TO LOOK OUT FOR OUR FAMILY HOME, SO IF I DIDNT HAVE COWS I WOULD BE THERE JUST AS MUCH ANYWAY

you have the right idea of minimizing inputs however things like not vaccinating may bite you in the fanny one day. MY DAD SAID HE NEVER VACCINTATE UNLESS THE COWS LOOK WEEK AND SICK, BUT OTHER THAN THAT WE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM, HAVENT LOST A COW OR CALF IN 5-6 YEARS
your idea of buying hay instead of growing it is a good one (generally).

Don't you think having the land and the cows paid for is a big part of your financial success? Those are the two biggest expenses involved and from what I can gather you have those cost penciled in at $0.I'm glad you have got a good situation,but I don't think it is a reasonable model to determine predictable profit margins.

yep it help but my post was not about financial success, it was about making money. i was just posting about making money in cattle. If after 10-15 years you have spend all you earned from you cattle and you spent it paying off you enitre operation expenses, you MADE money. You have the value of your entire operation as part of your NET WORTH, not income. so after all is said and done you made money. My post is not as deep as some of you try to make it. all i was doing was put a positive light on the forum claim you cant make money

 

[larryshoat]

well...
i'm sure you will get a lot of replies to this tomorrow but i'll throw out a few ideas.

1) is your land paid for? YES PAID FOR MY DAD TOLD ME IN 1964 HE PURCHASED HIS FIRST 80 ACRES FOR $3300
2) thats great that you can run 1.14 cows per acre. most arent that lucky. YEP
3) a lot of people deworm twice a year
4) a lot of people vaccinate so theres another expense, NEVER VACCINATE UNLESS THE COW LOOKS OR ACTS SICK
5) most people probably feed more than 2 rolls per cow per winter. (assuming a roll of hay costs $30) FEED 5 ROLLS EVERY 2-3 DAYS
6) are you factoring in all your costs like the fuel it takes for you to drive 1.5 hours 3 or 4 times a week? I DONT COUNT THAT AS A COST, BECAUSE I HAVE TO LOOK OUT FOR OUR FAMILY HOME, SO IF I DIDNT HAVE COWS I WOULD BE THERE JUST AS MUCH ANYWAY

you have the right idea of minimizing inputs however things like not vaccinating may bite you in the fanny one day. MY DAD SAID HE NEVER VACCINTATE UNLESS THE COWS LOOK WEEK AND SICK, BUT OTHER THAN THAT WE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM, HAVENT LOST A COW OR CALF IN 5-6 YEARS
your idea of buying hay instead of growing it is a good one (generally).

Don't you think having the land and the cows paid for is a big part of your financial success? Those are the two biggest expenses involved and from what I can gather you have those cost penciled in at $0.I'm glad you have got a good situation,but I don't think it is a reasonable model to determine predictable profit margins.

yep it help but my post was not about financial success, it was about making money. i was just posting about making money in cattle. If after 10-15 years you have spend all you earned from you cattle and you spent it paying off you enitre operation expenses, you MADE money. You have the value of your entire operation as part of your NET WORTH, not income. so after all is said and done you made money. My post is not as deep as some of you try to make it. all i was doing was put a positive light on the forum claim you cant make money

I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
I apologize.

Larry

 

[eric]

in the winter time we feed about 5-6 bales of hay every 3 day, and it seems like plenty

at 25 bucks a bale, $15k buys 600 bales. If you are feeding 5-6 bales every 3 days, thats 50 bales a month. Why are you buying 600 bales if you are only feeding 50 bales a month for probably no more than a couple of months if your cows are grazing yr round?

Where's that BS flag when we really need it?

Like the man (or woman-not really sure which it is anymore ;-) ) is fond of saying, you can't starve a profit out of a cow.

 

[tmaygspeara]

in the winter time we feed about 5-6 bales of hay every 3 day, and it seems like plenty

at 25 bucks a bale, $15k buys 600 bales. If you are feeding 5-6 bales every 3 days, thats 50 bales a month. Why are you buying 600 bales if you are only feeding 50 bales a month for probably no more than a couple of months if your cows are grazing yr round?

Where's that BS flag when we really need it?

Like the man (or woman-not really sure which it is anymore ;-) ) is fond of saying, you can't starve a profit out of a cow.

Its funny how on forums other member try to pick apart post for inaccuracies. if you read my original post i said we spend 10-15k on hay, also i never stated we get $25 bales, i am trying and i probably will this year, but what i said was when you go to a farmer who sales hay, when you throw big money his their face you can get a cheaper prices ($20-25 a bale) as with anything. ALso when i said 5-6 bales every 3-4 days, i forgot to mention we have 2 sets of cows, so 5-6 bales X 2. last year we spent 10k on hay and for about 350 bales. we alway get a few more than needed because we never know how the hay will be the next year, but most of the time we give them all the hay we have saving about 20

 

[usernametaken]

yep it help but my post was not about financial success, it was about making money. i was just posting about making money in cattle. If after 10-15 years you have spend all you earned from you cattle and you spent it paying off you enitre operation expenses, you MADE money. You have the value of your entire operation as part of your NET WORTH, not income. so after all is said and done you made money. My post is not as deep as some of you try to make it. all i was doing was put a positive light on the forum claim you cant make money

I believe you are correct tmaygspeara. I think tmaygspeara hit a nerve with his original post. He makes money and it sound easy, but his situation is not the same as many others. Nonetheless, if you take what he said simply, without reading into it more, I believe he is referring to the fact that there is money to be made off of cattle. Simply taken this is the cow herd minus the expenses spent on the cow herd + the sales price = the simple profit. This of course does not figure into it various outlays of capital, which is where he has an advantage in figures. I believe he is correct in figuring that whether or not the cow services the debt load completely or not, does not take away from the fact that the herd made money. Debt load, depreciation, etc. would need to be considered separately. If the herd brings in a return of any kind, be it enough to service debt load or not, the herd made money that is applied to equity. Equity is money too. If the herd does not contribute equity fast enough, that is a personal situation - can expenses be reduced or are you willing to wait out the time to build enough equity ? Still does not negate the fact the herd made money.

If the herd is not vaccinated it may be a risk to feedlots, but then again, with all the heat and humidity and crawly vermin in Louisiana, ripe for production of bacteria, they may have some seriously strong immune capabilities built up, worm resistence, etc.

Just some thoughts.
untaken

 

[Paul54]

1) No need for herbicides
2) Fertilizer as per soil sample = $42 / acre
3) Fuel for clipping / cutting / baling = $5.00 / acre
4) Labor = Me and Wife - You tell me what quality time in hay field with wife is worth. Very Happy
Something that I didn't mention in earlier post is that I run 1 cow / 1 1/2 acre.
I baled hay this year for $6.35 per bale + Me and Wife. Very Happy
How do some of the rest of ya'll figure Ya'll's hay?
Hope that kind of clear things up. Very Happy Very Happy

Thanks Paul54 that helps alot. I don't want to beat this to death but would like to better understand it.
Your numbers sound about right to me. For bahia I'm guessing you'll get about 1.5 rolls/acre. So with cost inputs per acre of $47 (42+5) and 1.5 rolls per acre gives $31.33/roll Those numbers sound about right. So how do you figure $31.33/roll is 1/3 the cost of buying hay. Certainly you were not paying over $90/roll for cow hay.

If all I could get out of my pasture was 1.5 bales / acre I would buy hay. I got 7.4 bales / acre.

 

[Brandonm2]

(quote edited out by request

Uh, I hope I reall all that wrong! and you did not just admit to cheating on your taxes.....on THE INTERNET!!! The IRS pays bounty money for this kind of information and IP addresses can be tracked with some degree of accuracy. Of course we both KNOW that I have somehow MISinterpreted what you said......rught?!?!?!

 

[dcara]

Paul54 wrote:
dcara wrote:
Quote:
1) No need for herbicides
2) Fertilizer as per soil sample = $42 / acre
3) Fuel for clipping / cutting / baling = $5.00 / acre
4) Labor = Me and Wife - You tell me what quality time in hay field with wife is worth. Very Happy
Something that I didn't mention in earlier post is that I run 1 cow / 1 1/2 acre.
I baled hay this year for $6.35 per bale + Me and Wife. Very Happy
How do some of the rest of ya'll figure Ya'll's hay?
Hope that kind of clear things up. Very Happy Very Happy


Thanks Paul54 that helps alot. I don't want to beat this to death but would like to better understand it.
Your numbers sound about right to me. For bahia I'm guessing you'll get about 1.5 rolls/acre. So with cost inputs per acre of $47 (42+5) and 1.5 rolls per acre gives $31.33/roll Those numbers sound about right. So how do you figure $31.33/roll is 1/3 the cost of buying hay. Certainly you were not paying over $90/roll for cow hay.


I am going to try to get this right this time. Embarassed I bale a 20 acre pasture and I get 148 bales of hay, according to my little wal-mart calculater thats about 7.4 bales per acre. I've only been doing this for about 30 yrs. so what do I know!! Shocked Shocked


Your right. We got about 9 per acre a year off of our fescue/sericea+timothy fields and something better than that off of Johnsongrass, Bahia, or Sudex fields. I couldn't crank a tractor up for that 1.5 bales an acre quote.

Holy Moly! I might just move to Alabama. I thought about adding a line in my last post about the calculation of 7.4 bales/ac but thought it to be ridiculous. The only other variable is the weight, which is what really matters anyway. I mean your not talking about little 400lb rolls or something are you, or the total from multiple cuttings. That is, 3 cuttings at about 2.5 bales/cutting?

 

[grubbie]

A lot depends on your situation. We run 1500 acres in Wyoming. But,...I don't have to pay for it. When we came back to the ranch to run it we had to start slow. Bought 3 cows to start with. Bought an old tractor with a loader for 2500.00, and made a spike to handle round bales. Made a homemade bale bed on an old pickup to feed with. There is lots of hay on the land, a neighbor puts it up on shares. Sure I would like to have a newer stock trailer, nicer pickup and tractor, and someday I will. But right now we're just breaking even with the cows. In the process of putting up new corrals and buildings. A lot of sweat equity here. We don't vaccinate, other than calves in the spring. The cows get good feed and mineral tubs, and are very healthy. This ranch has run this way for 3 generations and pretty much the only way we lose cows is to old age. In other parts of the country, the forage base may be different and cows may need something else, but ours do fine here, even in the harsh winters. We will make money on our operation, but like i said, making money on these critters is completely dependent on your situation.

 

[TheBullLady]

I understand the point you're trying to make in the original post.. by taking out "voluntary" costs, you have the potential to make more profit on your cattle. But I also have to agree with the posters that mentioned that most don't have the luxury of using land, equipment and cows that they didn't have to buy. And it still all boils down to WHAT your goals for your operation are. If you're trying to sell breeding stock, obviously your way of doing things isn't going to work.

I also can't help but wonder about the 12 other siblings you have. Aren't you worried about dividing everything when your parents die? Family squabbles can sure get ugly when inheriting something is involved.

 

[rockridgecattle]

boy can they ever

 

[tmaygspeara]

I understand the point you're trying to make in the original post.. by taking out "voluntary" costs, you have the potential to make more profit on your cattle. But I also have to agree with the posters that mentioned that most don't have the luxury of using land, equipment and cows that they didn't have to buy. And it still all boils down to WHAT your goals for your operation are. If you're trying to sell breeding stock, obviously your way of doing things isn't going to work.

I also can't help but wonder about the 12 other siblings you have. Aren't you worried about dividing everything when your parents die? Family squabbles can sure get ugly when inheriting something is involved.

well the situation with the family is kind of a funny one. i am only 27 years of age. my closest sibling is 48 (10 girls and 2 boys) and she is a female and the age run up from there. when they left the home the vowed not to return to the county and they dont, not even to visit my father so i know what is willed to me. my dad stated that they are probably not going to ever come back to the country since they are spread out all over and if they do they will not farm so they have a acre spread out here and there if they ever wanna return to build a house. they mother died when they were kids, my dad remarried and they fell out with my dad when he divorced his 2nd wife, the woman who raised them. all his kids took her side and they dont are not really concerned abuot their father, dont call home, fathers day nothing. all my sibling have the same mother except me, and so when i was born they nevered accepted me, dont speak to me, dont allow their children to call me uncle. i have 42 niece and nephews and i only know 4. so that is our situation

when you talk about breed stock you mean register to sell in indivuals buyers. what is the benefit in doing that than taking to auction getting $450-700 a cows

 

[Brute 23]

I understand the point you're trying to make in the original post.. by taking out "voluntary" costs, you have the potential to make more profit on your cattle. But I also have to agree with the posters that mentioned that most don't have the luxury of using land, equipment and cows that they didn't have to buy. And it still all boils down to WHAT your goals for your operation are. If you're trying to sell breeding stock, obviously your way of doing things isn't going to work.

I also can't help but wonder about the 12 other siblings you have. Aren't you worried about dividing everything when your parents die? Family squabbles can sure get ugly when inheriting something is involved.

well the situation with the family is kind of a funny one. i am only 27 years of age. my closest sibling is 48 (10 girls and 2 boys) and she is a female and the age run up from there. when they left the home the vowed not to return to the county and they dont, not even to visit my father so i know what is willed to me. my dad stated that they are probably not going to ever come back to the country since they are spread out all over and if they do they will not farm so they have a acre spread out here and there if they ever wanna return to build a house. they mother died when they were kids, my dad remarried and they fell out with my dad when he divorced his 2nd wife, the woman who raised them. all his kids took her side and they dont are not really concerned abuot their father, dont call home, fathers day nothing. all my sibling have the same mother except me, and so when i was born they nevered accepted me, dont speak to me, dont allow their children to call me uncle. i have 42 niece and nephews and i only know 4. so that is our situation

when you talk about breed stock you mean register to sell in indivuals buyers. what is the benefit in doing that than taking to auction getting $450-700 a cows

Not trying to get in your business but make sure that you father already has the will made and is not just telling you what is going to be in it.

Also check with an attourney. If he does not give them anything an you get it all,,, alot of times they can come and get their share wether it was left to them or not. He needs to give them all something,,, even if it is $1,000 each. It doesn't have to be that much even just something.

Start getting ready for the fight now,,, you'll be amazed how family will temp. forget grudges when they think there is something in it for them,,, especially $$$.

 

[Brandonm2]

Paul54 wrote:
dcara wrote:
Quote:
1) No need for herbicides
2) Fertilizer as per soil sample = $42 / acre
3) Fuel for clipping / cutting / baling = $5.00 / acre
4) Labor = Me and Wife - You tell me what quality time in hay field with wife is worth. Very Happy
Something that I didn't mention in earlier post is that I run 1 cow / 1 1/2 acre.
I baled hay this year for $6.35 per bale + Me and Wife. Very Happy
How do some of the rest of ya'll figure Ya'll's hay?
Hope that kind of clear things up. Very Happy Very Happy


Thanks Paul54 that helps alot. I don't want to beat this to death but would like to better understand it.
Your numbers sound about right to me. For bahia I'm guessing you'll get about 1.5 rolls/acre. So with cost inputs per acre of $47 (42+5) and 1.5 rolls per acre gives $31.33/roll Those numbers sound about right. So how do you figure $31.33/roll is 1/3 the cost of buying hay. Certainly you were not paying over $90/roll for cow hay.


I am going to try to get this right this time. Embarassed I bale a 20 acre pasture and I get 148 bales of hay, according to my little wal-mart calculater thats about 7.4 bales per acre. I've only been doing this for about 30 yrs. so what do I know!! Shocked Shocked


Your right. We got about 9 per acre a year off of our fescue/sericea+timothy fields and something better than that off of Johnsongrass, Bahia, or Sudex fields. I couldn't crank a tractor up for that 1.5 bales an acre quote.

Holy Moly! I might just move to Alabama. I thought about adding a line in my last post about the calculation of 7.4 bales/ac but thought it to be ridiculous. The only other variable is the weight, which is what really matters anyway. I mean your not talking about little 400lb rolls or something are you, or the total from multiple cuttings. That is, 3 cuttings at about 2.5 bales/cutting?

I am talking about multiple cuttings. Our Gehl 1500 "on paper" rolled a 1000 lb bale, but I think the manufacturer must have tested that with green alfalfa or something. 800 lbs was ~about average. The Hesston 5580 that replaced it baled a better looking roll; but the weight is probably the same.

 

[Beef11]

Why is land always figured into a startup cost? Ranching doesn't require buying a ranch with a big house. I just saw a place for sale around here 2 mill it runs 200 cows that is 10k per animal unit to buy. That means if you clear 300 per cow (good luck) you have a 3% return. Go get a CD. There are very few places where land can be bought by cattle.

In a startup situation you can handicap your venture very quickly buy spending all of your money on overpriced waste ground. If you want to invest in land you might be on the right road.

Simply Land and cattle are seperate investments and should be treated as such. If you have land paid for (good job) it doesn't make your cattle more profitble it makes your land more profitable. Give credit where credit is due. Cattle, Land management.

 

[Brute 23]

Why is land always figured into a startup cost? Ranching doesn't require buying a ranch with a big house. I just saw a place for sale around here 2 mill it runs 200 cows that is 10k per animal unit to buy. That means if you clear 300 per cow (good luck) you have a 3% return. Go get a CD. There are very few places where land can be bought by cattle.

In a startup situation you can handicap your venture very quickly buy spending all of your money on overpriced waste ground. If you want to invest in land you might be on the right road.

Simply Land and cattle are seperate investments and should be treated as such. If you have land paid for (good job) it doesn't make your cattle more profitble it makes your land more profitable. Give credit where credit is due. Cattle, Land management.

That is a very good point.... but investing in land is something that you should be doing as one of the last things to add to your personal portfolio. If you are smart you have pleanty of money in the bank, assets, stocks, ect... already.

I work for two gentlemen who are doing exactly what you said. They are buying up land for the investment, to diversify their personal portfolio.

They buy raw, most of the time neglected land, under market value (from people who want to get rid of it and get excited when they see cash), and then they put cattle on it and once the cattle pay for themselves the cattle then pay for improvements (barns, tanks, improved grasses) to the land. Thus making the land value go up.

Then some person comes from the city who wants a hobby and pays 2x or 3x what we paid for the land or they just keep it. ;-)

The problem is most cattle people want to just run cattle and they have to do things like this or that. Cattle can make you money,,, but most likely if you weren't making money at what you were doing before the cattle,,, you won't make it with the cattle.

 

[Beef11]

That is a very good point.... but investing in land is something that you should be doing as one of the last things to add to your personal portfolio. If you are smart you have pleanty of money in the bank, assets, stocks, ect... already.

I work for two gentlemen who are doing exactly what you said. They are buying up land for the investment, to diversify their personal portfolio.

They buy raw, most of the time neglected land, under market value (from people who want to get rid of it and get excited when they see cash), and then they put cattle on it and once the cattle pay for themselves the cattle then pay for improvements (barns, tanks, improved grasses) to the land. Thus making the land value go up.

Then some person comes from the city who wants a hobby and pays 2x or 3x what we paid for the land or they just keep it.

The problem is most cattle people want to just run cattle and they have to do things like this or that. Cattle can make you money,,, but most likely if you weren't making money at what you were doing before the cattle,,, you won't make it with the cattle.

Right on the money. Many old family operations have been living off of equity from apprecitation for decades. Then they sell. The ones that are growing and growing have figured it out.

 

[Arnold Ziffle]

tmaygspeara --- not to stick my nose in your business but, assuming your dad resides in Louisiana and his property is there as well, it might be a good idea to contact an attorney regarding his property and the estate transfer rules that are peculiar to Louisiana. As I recall, Louisiana is the one state that does not essentially use English common law in regards to rights of succession and instead uses a version of Napoleonic Code. I don't remember the specifics, but I think there used to be "forced kinship" rules in Lousiana, and possibly a parent cannot simply cut a child out of his will under La. state law -- if that indeed is the case your half-siblings would possibly have a shot at the property even if your dad "willed" it all to you. I might be all wet on this, as it comes from way back in the recesses of my mind! But it sounds to me like you have a lot potentially at stake and it seems to me that it would be prudent for you to get with an attorney in order to make sure things are the way you and your dad want them to be before he passes on, to the extent possible under La. law.