Cost raising cattle question

[Caustic Burno]

Uh, I hope I reall all that wrong! and you did not just admit to cheating on your taxes.....on THE INTERNET!!! The IRS pays bounty money for this kind of information and IP addresses can be tracked with some degree of accuracy. Of course we both KNOW that I have somehow MISinterpreted what you said......rught?!?!?!

OH YEA you must have mis understood what i said, i see you got that in quotes, but who wrote that not me.[/quote]

No joke and you can't depreciate the cow unless you bought it I hope you have a bill of sale on that imaginary cow.

 

[tmaygspeara]

Most don't count true cost what were the taxes divided among X head.
What was the fence cost diveded by X head.
Fuel cost.
Med Cost
Equipment maintainece cost
Fertilizer cost.
Land Cost
Equipment cost
XYZ cost divided by the total number of head.

Then you are not going to have a 100% calf crop due to loses
now you have a cow that you had to maintain for two years before you recieved any return.

Average upkeep cost is a dollar a day for a cow so you have 365 dollars a year upkeep.
If you retain heifers your cost increase versus buying heavies or 3 n1's
As the dam returns nothing to the bottom line for two years and you have two and half years in the heifer before she adds a return to the bottom line. The heifer is 2 before she calfs and another 6 months before the calf is ready to sell. That puts you at having 910 dollars in the heifer before she returned a dime. You have 730 dollars in the dam before she returned any income.

we dont keep any calves, we have enough, so after they are weaned and the time and price is right, they are gone.

 

[rockridgecattle]

i have some questions for you. Your dad bought the land, and the machinery. Are you buying it from him? what about the cows?
there are some of us who are buying the land and the equipment, as near Noah's age as it is, and the cow from the parents. Bites into your profits real fast.
You have 250 + cows and feed 5-6 bales every three days? We feed 100 cows. 5-6 bales every two days. We live in a climate that just beats all for the cold and the animals eat to generate energy to keep warm. On a normal winter (-10 to -25 with odd days of -30 celcius...different that Faerenhiet) 6-8 bales per cow. on an extreme winter like last winter almost 10 per cow(5 weeks of weather -30 to -45 celcius). This includes bedding. Our winter starts in October and ends in april sometime if we are lucky. Usually we feed from mid September with just a bit of hay while they are still grazing what they can. Full force feeding by the end of September, early october. Feeding until mid may when the grass gets going. How about you!
When was the last time you went to the feed lot who bought your cattle to see how they faired? did they get sick? Did they put on the pounds did they die from shipping fever and or something else? What kind of follow up was done with your cattle in the feed lots?
Glad you are doing so well, really i am, but I bet your situation is much different than that of us.

 

[Stepper]

Well i will admit that i dont know no where near as much as most of you do about the profits that are made off of cattle.

But i have been tring to keep track of my exspenses on my small operation so that i can see for myself just how much money i am making or losing.

And i have listened to thoes of you who says they are making money and thoes who says the national average is arround $ 100 a head.

So this is my take on it so far. I had to be out all of the start up cost on my little operation. And i think that the majority of small operations like me have to do the same. And i can tell you right now by having to buy all of your equipment, land even if it is just a small amount of land, leases and everything else that goes with it. If you are honest about it you are losing money.( not even clearing $ 100 a head ) And that is buying used equipment and not hiring any of the work done.

And if you will notice most of the ones who claim to be making a good profit off cattle are using perfect figures to back their calims of making alot of money off of their operations. For instance, They are figureing saling 600 lb calves at $ 1.15 or better a head. And having a 100 % calve crop no lost calves. Everything is perfect.

Well that is another thing i can vouch for. In the cattle bussiness things dont work perfectly in the real world. Most of the calves you take to sale vary in their weights and are not an ideal 600 lbs and the market varys with them and they will not bring that ideal $ 1.15 plus a head. The market wont do that even when it is good.

And most of the people who i hear talk about making money off of cattle got their start by having alot of their equipment, land and other things passed on to them. ( They are lucky i wish i was in their shoes ) And most of them that make their living only by cattle alone run 500 head or more.

That is just my observations of the profits made in cattle so far. And i know there is going to be someone ask, well why are you in it then ? :lol: And all i can say to that is some times some of us have to learn things the hard way. Not that i have not learned my lesson and not that i am not thinking about getting out of it. Because i am really giving that alot of thought.

 

[dun]

And all i can say to that is some times some of us have to learn things the hard way. Not that i have not learned my lesson and not that i am not thinking about getting out of it. Because i am really giving that alot of thought.

I think about getting out of the business, retiring again, sometimes, but I know I'll just get back into them again. But now I'm down to a retirement farm and will probably get rid of a few cows to get back down to a couple of dozen again. But even if I lost money on everyone, I can;t imagine life without the darn things. Tried it! Didn;t like it any of the times I've done it

 

[tmaygspeara]

i have some questions for you. Your dad bought the land, and the machinery. Are you buying it from him? what about the cows?
there are some of us who are buying the land and the equipment, as near Noah's age as it is, and the cow from the parents. Bites into your profits real fast.
You have 250 + cows and feed 5-6 bales every three days? We feed 100 cows. 5-6 bales every two days. We live in a climate that just beats all for the cold and the animals eat to generate energy to keep warm. On a normal winter (-10 to -25 with odd days of -30 celcius...different that Faerenhiet) 6-8 bales per cow. on an extreme winter like last winter almost 10 per cow(5 weeks of weather -30 to -45 celcius). This includes bedding. Our winter starts in October and ends in april sometime if we are lucky. Usually we feed from mid September with just a bit of hay while they are still grazing what they can. Full force feeding by the end of September, early october. Feeding until mid may when the grass gets going. How about you!
When was the last time you went to the feed lot who bought your cattle to see how they faired? did they get sick? Did they put on the pounds did they die from shipping fever and or something else? What kind of follow up was done with your cattle in the feed lots?
Glad you are doing so well, really i am, but I bet your situation is much different than that of us.

i live in louisiana and where i stay we dont really have a harsh winter. 5-6 bales do us just fine. My dad alway say were are not raising cattle for show. I will be honest, our cows are not the fattest, and i have intention on make them fat. as long as they are healty and raise healty calves they will make it on the hay we feed them. You asked have i went to the feedlot to see cattle after they are sold, what for why would i do that

 

[rockridgecattle]

to see how your calves compare to the calves who are preconditioned. Could be a real eye opener.
Never said do you have to buy everything from your dad or do you get it handed. Makes a difference in profit.

 

[tmaygspeara]

to see how your calves compare to the calves who are preconditioned. Could be a real eye opener.
Never said do you have to buy everything from your dad or do you get it handed. Makes a difference in profit.

I refuse to answer that question because i dont see how that makes a difference in making money. i dont know if i am taking it the wrong way but its kind of offensive since it doesnt have anything to do with the post. will your kids have to buy your land, will your kids have to answers silly questions like did your dad hand it to you or did you buy from him. my dad is 86 years old with 12 kids and iam the only one who ever helped him on the farm without being asked to, so there is your answer.

The post is talking about making money so what does me not having to buy land have to do with it. if your start up cost is $100,000 and you made $100,000 off your cattle you are making money. you made enough money to pay for something you didnt have before (land,tractor,other equipment) my post was responding to all the people talking about making money in the cattle business. i was not addressing the issue of start up cost and paying loans back. if you made enought money to pay off your loan, then you making money. Now if you have to take your outside pay check just to keep the cows fed then you are losing money. i was blessed enought to not have the start up cost, but i am looking into buy another 100 acres or so in 2-3 years.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Well i will admit that i dont know no where near as much as most of you do about the profits that are made off of cattle.

But i have been tring to keep track of my exspenses on my small operation so that i can see for myself just how much money i am making or losing.

And i have listened to thoes of you who says they are making money and thoes who says the national average is arround $ 100 a head.

So this is my take on it so far. I had to be out all of the start up cost on my little operation. And i think that the majority of small operations like me have to do the same. And i can tell you right now by having to buy all of your equipment, land even if it is just a small amount of land, leases and everything else that goes with it. If you are honest about it you are losing money.( not even clearing $ 100 a head ) And that is buying used equipment and not hiring any of the work done.

And if you will notice most of the ones who claim to be making a good profit off cattle are using perfect figures to back their calims of making alot of money off of their operations. For instance, They are figureing saling 600 lb calves at $ 1.15 or better a head. And having a 100 % calve crop no lost calves. Everything is perfect.

Well that is another thing i can vouch for. In the cattle bussiness things dont work perfectly in the real world. Most of the calves you take to sale vary in their weights and are not an ideal 600 lbs and the market varys with them and they will not bring that ideal $ 1.15 plus a head. The market wont do that even when it is good.

And most of the people who i hear talk about making money off of cattle got their start by having alot of their equipment, land and other things passed on to them. ( They are lucky i wish i was in their shoes ) And most of them that make their living only by cattle alone run 500 head or more.

That is just my observations of the profits made in cattle so far. And i know there is going to be someone ask, well why are you in it then ? :lol: And all i can say to that is some times some of us have to learn things the hard way. Not that i have not learned my lesson and not that i am not thinking about getting out of it. Because i am really giving that alot of thought.

You can make money with cattle you just can't make it without being a Jack of all trades, and tighter than a crabs butt.
Small operations can make money as well just can't think and spend like the Ponderosa.
It is like the guy that buys the 40,000 dollar tractor for a tax write off to save 6000 dollars in taxes you are still 34,000 dollars in the hole. The guy that buys 30,000 dollars worth of hay equipment and claims he is baling hay for 10 dollars a bale.
You can never get out of the hole in a 25 cow operation.
Now if you want to do this as a hobby it's probabaly cheaper than golf etc. there is at least a return to be made.

 

[Stepper]

dun,

I can see your point. No longer than what i have been involved with cattle and as much of my time that it takes up to fool with them. I have to say i enjoy it. :lol:

I can only imagine someone who has been in the bussiness as long as you have. It is kind of strange at how anyone could enjoy something that takes up so much time & money to do. With so little money to be made off of it. :lol:

I think that a big percentage of the people in the bussiness are in it for the life style rather than the money that is made from it. :lol:

And you know i had herd that very thing i dont know how many times and from alot of different people. So i really think it some how gets in your blood. :lol:

I mean i would love to be able to make my living from ranching. But unless i happen to win the lottery i dont ever see that happening.

I think in my position the most cattle that see myself being able to run with out having to go in futher debth to buy more land would be about 30 head. And even with 30 head i dont think it is worth tieing up all of my time for no more return than i would get from them.

Heck i like to hunt and fish and go do a little something everynow and then. 30 head or even 10 head is just enough to tie up all of my spare time. :lol:

I dont know. All i do know is that i am going to do some serious soul searching and try to and decide if i really wont to spend what years i have left messing with these old cows ! :lol:

 

[Victoria]

Things are different here, again we have real winter, not just the pretend Louisanna stuff. You and I comparing operations would be like comparing apples to oranges so I won't even get into it. I did notice in your post that you said you have 250+ cattle. You also said you don't keep any calves but you sell 200 calves. Am I reading this wrong or are you actually losing one fifth of your calves every year? :shock:

One comment on vaccines. We do vaccinate, always. It can be a waste of money but it is insurance. I was just reading in the paper about a family, dad had a good job they weren't super poor and they had a house fire. No insurance, it seemed to them to be "an unecessary expense." They wish they had paid it now. It's the same thing with vaccinating a herd, if everything is going well it is a waste of money but there are people who have lost their entire herd to something they could have vaccinated against.

 

[Stepper]

Well i have went into it with used equipment and nothing extra at that. I dont hire nothing done, with the exception i did hire a couple of boys to haul a few square bales of hay.

I dont spend no where enough where my little operation benifits me at all on taxes. There is not no change at all on my tax returns.

The only vet bill i had was when i had him palpate 9 heifers and when i had him look at one calf with rot foot. And i ended up finishing up the treatment for that one.

I built all of my facilitys without hiring it done.

We had a discussion here on the forum a while back as to what all you should take into consideration as exspenses spent to maintain your operation.

And alot of people seemed to think you should not consider your time that you put into taking care of it. But i really think you should consider that to in a round about way. And i can say this. If i was to just figure in half my time that i have in them. I could make more money working somewhere making minimum wage as compared to what i make off cattle.

 

[Paul54]

1) No need for herbicides
2) Fertilizer as per soil sample = $42 / acre
3) Fuel for clipping / cutting / baling = $5.00 / acre
4) Labor = Me and Wife - You tell me what quality time in hay field with wife is worth. Very Happy
Something that I didn't mention in earlier post is that I run 1 cow / 1 1/2 acre.
I baled hay this year for $6.35 per bale + Me and Wife. Very Happy
How do some of the rest of ya'll figure Ya'll's hay?
Hope that kind of clear things up. Very Happy Very Happy

Thanks Paul54 that helps alot. I don't want to beat this to death but would like to better understand it.
Your numbers sound about right to me. For bahia I'm guessing you'll get about 1.5 rolls/acre. So with cost inputs per acre of $47 (42+5) and 1.5 rolls per acre gives $31.33/roll Those numbers sound about right. So how do you figure $31.33/roll is 1/3 the cost of buying hay. Certainly you were not paying over $90/roll for cow hay.

I am going to try to get this right this time. I bale a 20 acre pasture and I get 148 bales of hay, according to my little wal-mart calculater thats about 7.4 bales per acre. I've only been doing this for about 30 yrs. so what do I know!! :shock: :shock:

 

[Brute 23]

It wouldn't take long to pay for the camera when you add up the $$$ in gas you spend going to check cattle.

I have been able to take what my family had and expand it. Bought more land, equipment, cattle, ect... and all of it is paid for. One place paid for the other, then those two paid for another, then those three paid for another. Now I have it set up where one place pays for labor, one for equipment, and the others are money in the bank. To the point now that I make more money off the ranch then my father made and spend alot less time working on it.

Yall have seen my ignorance about the "cattle industry". I did that on the basis of giving the cattle the necessities to produce. No more... no less. Income - Expences = PROFIT

 

[tmaygspeara]

....i have 15 cameras set up to where anytime of the day i can look on my laptop and view every inch of the farm........

I would be interested in learning more about your camera/system setup.

Me too. But I need a solar based system and be able to get the images 80 miles away.

As to expenses, I think you might be forgetting some along the way like personal labor. 1 cow per 1.5 acres sounds like very lush grass. Is that real? What do you get per calf?

I suspect your having fun with this right now but wearing some rose-colored glasses on the expenses. I do to. How much for the real-time camera system?

check out the link i posted. i dont have the exact name brand i have now but i will get it later. My brother works for ADT alarm company and he guided me in my camera purchase. You can get the images 80 miles away all you have to do is log into the software and wi fi account and they will all be on your computer real time, it might be a little delay but i can still keep my eye on things. for the cost, well i did NOT buy all cameras at once. it took me over 3 years to get all the cameras i need. i started with 5 and then realized i needed one in that corner, then after that, i realized i need one in this corner and it just progressed from there.

i am being totally honest about what we put into it. I know it might sound strange but this is the way my dad has done it as long as i can remember. The only time my dad use to fertilize was when he was growing hay. OH......i did forget 1 more expense and thats winter grass. that also run about $3000. thats it. no corn, no sweet feed, no pumping water, no checking on them everyday. My dad was mad when i purchased a new tractor, but i could not ride that old ford anymore, i needed air and a radio) no facilities except a catch pen and chute. no sprigging (or whatever that is), no vet, no de worming (maybe once a year). no fertilize except when we plant winter grass. no equipment (we have everything but most of it is not needed anymore) no equipment repairs. wasted money on a new tractor

 

[rgv]

I can't help but wonder if Caustic is arguing with himself?

RGV

 

[Brandonm2]

And all i can say to that is some times some of us have to learn things the hard way. Not that i have not learned my lesson and not that i am not thinking about getting out of it. Because i am really giving that alot of thought.

I think about getting out of the business, retiring again, sometimes, but I know I'll just get back into them again. But now I'm down to a retirement farm and will probably get rid of a few cows to get back down to a couple of dozen again. But even if I lost money on everyone, I can;t imagine life without the darn things. Tried it! Didn;t like it any of the times I've done it

I did get out back in 2004 (right before the price got ridiculously high).......the only time my family has been out since WWII! It was the right financial move; but I am going freaking nuts....though on the plus side I am missing out on the biggest drought I can ever recall; while plotting (hard plotting) my inevitable return.

 

[tmaygspeara]

Things are different here, again we have real winter, not just the pretend Louisanna stuff. You and I comparing operations would be like comparing apples to oranges so I won't even get into it. I did notice in your post that you said you have 250+ cattle. You also said you don't keep any calves but you sell 200 calves. Am I reading this wrong or are you actually losing one fifth of your calves every year? :shock:

One comment on vaccines. We do vaccinate, always. It can be a waste of money but it is insurance. I was just reading in the paper about a family, dad had a good job they weren't super poor and they had a house fire. No insurance, it seemed to them to be "an unecessary expense." They wish they had paid it now. It's the same thing with vaccinating a herd, if everything is going well it is a waste of money but there are people who have lost their entire herd to something they could have vaccinated against.

to be honest i really dont know the number off hand its around (235-250) I said 200+ calves. every cow doesnt calve so thats why i stated 200+. Also every year we slaughter 3 and give to our family and friends

 

[rockridgecattle]

My apologies for offending you. Seriously. Here is a quote from you:

My dad always taught me how NOT to spend money and i have made that rules to live by. We dont spend any money on our cattle beside hay and mineral blocks so if we can get by with how we are making it, i wonder why so many cattlemen say it is hard to make money

the point i am trying to make is we are not all so luck as to not have to make mortgage payments or equipment payments or cow payments. these come off the top of any income any where from 5-15 years. for us it's close to 15000 in payments. then there are the expenses. this is why it's hard to make ends meet

Now about the feed lot thing. I've worked in a feed lot. worked causally vaccinating calves as they came in. Or treating calves if they got sick. I firmly believe that every cow/calf operator, if given the chance, should spend time in a feedlot
the reason is the insight we get as producers as to how what we do affects what happpens at the feedlot. We might not see animals sick on our farm but what happens when they get in the feedlot is a different story. I have seen the difference in preconditioned calves. How they gain, how they handle stress better and not get sick. I have seen how calves not vaccinated get sick, cost a pile in vet fees and medication, only to end up unproductive money pits or dead. Plain and simple. Feed lot operators are going to be able to figure out who owned the sick ones and know who cost them money and who does not and eventually we will see it in our bottom line.
Again my apologies for offending you.

 

[Jogeephus]

I can't help but wonder if Caustic is arguing with himself?

RGV

:lol: