Continued from "New Calf... Help!" in the breeding

[MikeJoel]

This is continued from
http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21231

Calf is a 50-55Lb heifer. Light brown with white spots.
Will put up a picture as soon as I can get one of her standing.
She is leaping and playing so must be pretty healthy.


Anyway

Sister got up before me and was working on her when I got there. Turns out there was no clog or problem (like Milkmaid said; right again )

Nothing was working still so we called the guy who sold it to us who also works a bit with cows. Said he would come over.
About 15 minutes later all but one teat was leaking milk so we tried to call him and tell him to not bother. He was already coming and when he got there went in and did a little milking to check it. We had already checked the milk and knew there was no infections so we weren't that worried.
The last teat started going.

Now here is a NEW problem.

The cow is now kicking like mad.
This morning we tried to control the kick (since it wasn't that bad it was more an irritated kick than a "I want to knock your head off"). Since we didn't have shackles we just took a lead rope and put it around the hock kept tention on it so if she kicked the person holding it would be able to restrain it. I know this probably seems foolish.
When this man got there he untied it and had one of use hold it's tale forcefully almost full up saying this would control the cow (now Ive never heard of that and it sure didnt seem to do much he almost got his head knocked off). When it still kicked he gave it a very hard punch/slap in the side (probably happened about 3 or 4 times).

Well tonight I wasn't going to repeat this since it seemed to have no effect. I wanted to try the lead rope again since the cow seemed much calmer with it and it worked to prevent a kick. Now it doesn't work. When she feels it on her leg she just starts kicking out behind and never puts the leg down so there is never a time to relax it and get control for either of us. I cant but feel the sudden extreme treatment this morning got an attitude change in the cow. Like I said though I may be completely off.

I refuse to let an animal have the best of me.
I dont want to get so mad as to start beating the cow. Isn't there a good way to stop this? Leg shackles as far as I can tell are out since now there is no way to get in to put them on.
I had an idea but dont know how to go about it. If I can keep the cow putting weight on that leg then she can't kick. I tried it with one hand on her back pulling while working but I cant keep doing that.

I know I sound like Im off my rocker and probably will be very embarrassed with myself once people give their replies.

I told others we should just leave her with the calf for a few days and then seperate them but I can't even be sure Im right about that anymore. I have read and been told before that some dairies dont bother the cow and calf for up to five days.

Sorry for such a silly post
Mike

 

[Workinonit Farm]

Is the cow allowing the calf to nurse? If so, leave them be for a day or so, then try again. Besides, the milk won't be ready for human drinking for about 5 or more days anyhow.

At that time, have you got a headgate/headcatch? Or an area where you can "squeeze" the cow between 2 gates with a barrier in front then put a barrier behind? If so, lock her up in this arrangement and get one leg tied. If she's kicking, she can only kick with one leg at a time (unless she's bucking). You'll need a second person for this. Whichever leg is not doing the kicking is the leg that gets tied, thus the reason for being able to "squeeze" her between 2 gates.
Just an idea. Perhaps others will chime in with more useful info.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Katherine

 

[msscamp]

Not a silly post - you've got the right idea, you just didn't take it far enough. Put her in the chute and tie her leg back so she can't kick the calf. Tie it with a slip knot or something along those lines that will allow you to release it quickly if she gets into trouble. Chances are her udder is over-full and tender because of it, the calf nursing causes pain and that is what she is reacting to. A few nursings should relieve the problem. Just my thoughts.

 

[milkmaid]

Not a silly question at-all, Mike. Some cows just DO have a bad attitude problem. Some of 'em settle down quick after a few days, others never. This cow ever been milked by hand before? That might be part of the problem.

There are some solutions to the kicking problem. First one I haven't actually tried myself, but dun suggested it and I'll bet it'll work. You tie a rope around their flank - similar to the bucking strap you see on bulls at a rodeo. Snug it up and the cow *can't* get her legs forward to kick.

Then there's the hobbles. They work on some cows and not on others. I have used them...homeade type, anyhow. I use a piece of rope about twice the thickness of baling twine and put it through a circular ring, tie that around one leg. Repeat on the other. Now, another piece of rope, same stuff, and two single snaps. I don't have a picture right now but if I remember when I go down for morning milking tomorrow I'll get one for you. Tie the rope to one snap, give it about 6", no more, of distance when you tie the other end to the other snap. Attach 6" piece of rope with snaps to the ring on each leg. Mind you, some cows tolerate it well and some go crazy and can get seriously hurt. Some cows tolerate it and learn to behave, others find a way to kick anyways.

Beating the cow *can* work but it's not my prefered method. Some cows figure out WHY they're being whacked and behave, and others just get mad. I try to avoid getting 1600lb animals mad at me. :lol2: Esp when I have to deal with them on a regular basis.

I haven't ever tried tying a leg up...well, not tried and had it work, anyways. LOL. You could put her in a chute but I prefer not to milk from the rear. Too easy to get splattered. LOL.

Then there's the actual anti-kicking devices made for this purpose. I do have a picture of that somewhere...give me a minute and I'll give you a picture of one on a cow. This works pretty slick.

Picture of it not on a cow from KV Vet... http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp ... E37D7FA837

Back in a minute.

 

[dun]

Simplist anti-kick device I've used is a 1/4 inch rope with a small loop/eye in one end. Pass it over her back and pull it up just in front of the udder, pass the end through the loop and pull it tight and tie it that way. She may be able to push with a hind leg, but not kick. As in everything with cows, nothing is foolproof. But I've never seen it fail to work. It works on the same principle as the "C" looking clamps they use in dairys for kickers.

dun

 

[milkmaid]

One of those anti-kicking devices I mentioned on a cow.

(For the record, this incredibly mean and dangerous 2nd lactation, 2 quarter'd beast finally went to slaughter about 2 months ago. I felt no twinge of regret watching her go into the trailer. :lol

If you know how to weld, you can use a piece of metal a little smaller in dimension than a rebar, and make one of these kick-stop devices. My boss has four or five in different sizes that he's made. The ones from KV Vet are a little nicer but it's about $15 plus shipping.

I've heard folks say twisting the tail up over their back works to prevent kicking - I haven't had much consistant success with it. The occasional, sometimes-it-works and sometimes-it-doesn't. Besides, you kind of need a second person there; hard to hold the tail and milk the cow simultaneously. :lol:

Just wait until this cow decides she's going to stop the constant kicking...and just kicks on occasion, or "just moves" at an inconvinent time. I'll give you a tip ahead of time - take two buckets out with out, put one on the other side of the fence or way out of "reach" of the cow no matter where she moves or what she does, and milk her into the other bucket. Everytime you get to about a quart or two, empty the first bucket into the second that's strategically placed far away. :lol: Saves you the frustration when she kicks hard or steps IN your full bucket of milk.

You'll figure out really quick there's a reason for the saying "no use crying over spilt milk". :lol:

If the cow hasn't been dry-treated with antibiotics, you can drink the milk about 2 milkings - 24? hours past calving - if it looks normal. We usually wait 4 to 6 milkings past calving before putting the milk in the tank, because of the withdrawal times on dry-treatments.

That's all I can think of off hand. Hope you find it helpful.

 

[MikeJoel]

Just some more information.
The seller claimed the cow has been milked by hand but usually by machine.

The front two teats are long enough for hand the last two only about three fingers long.

The cow doesnt buck (yet).
Now will it hurt not to do anything with the cow for like 3 days?
If I do nothing but go in and feed, water and clean she is completly OK. SO will I run a danger of mastitis or anything if I do this?

She was a pretty calm cow before birth and I just feel that if she were allowed to be quiet she might go back to a more relaxed attitude but I dont want to get her sick.

The calf is doing fine though. I haven't seen it nurse since last night but did notice the teat looked milked down and calf seems to have plenty of energy. She was bouncing about the stall while I cleaned. All the kids out here want to call her fawn since that is what she looks like (with the white spots).
The guy that came out acted like we would be interested in buying her (though we didn't offer) but have a feeling unless Im killed or go nuts we will probably keep her for another cow (maybe be able to raise some beef with two cows).
But Im not worried about that yet.

Thank you all for understanding and the help. It really is.

Mike

 

[milkmaid]

Won't hurt the cow at all to go several days. A mid-lactation cow that's used to being completely milked out at regular intervals would have problems, but not a fresh cow like yours. I've seen them go a full week before being milked. 3 days for one cow that went down with milk fever and no problems. My last nurse cow to calve I left her calf with her and waited about 3 days before walking her over to the dairy to get her milked out and that didn't cause any problems. (She did have mastitis, but I knew that immediately after calving, and it wasn't related to not being milked out. I had a culture result back by 36 hours after calving and was treating her with appropriate drugs.)

Milked by machine and milked by hand are two vastly different things to a cow. :lol: I know several cows that are absolutely awful to try to pre-strip, but once the milker itself is put on they are perfectly well behaved.

I need to turn in now...have to be up for the 4am milking at the dairy. I'll be back on later tomorrow morning.

 

[MikeJoel]

Yep, thanks.
Im going too.
Mike