Compare A.I. Bulls Hereford

[Alan]

Talk on another post about Vindicator, looking at his EPD's please explain why he would be better to use than another bull I'll put a couple up to compare to. My thought that Vindicator has good BW, to me everything seems off the mark, especially for a heifer replacement bull. But I'm trying to understand how to read EPD's better.

Vindicator:

CED-3.5, BW-1.8, WW-29, YW-42, MM-14, M&G-28, CEM-(-3.6), SC-0.1. ACC is mid 80's to mid 90's.



FELTONS MAGNUM 434:

CED-2.9, BW-3.1, WW-49, YW-80, MM-21, M&G-45, CEM-4.2, SC-1.0. ACC is all over, from low of 12 to high of 70.

While I was gathering info for this post, I did see how much a newer bull seem to change in their EPD's. I like the BRL Call 100 Bull but in just a few months his BW has gone way up and his MM has gone up from 22 to 24. While his WW and YW has dropped a little.

Thanks for any and all input.

Alan

 

[Caustic Burno]

Heck that one is easy Vidicator I looked it up he has over 1500 daughters hmm..

 

[Bez!]

Talk on another post about Vindicator, looking at his EPD's please explain why he would be better to use than another bull I'll put a couple up to compare to. My thought that Vindicator has good BW, to me everything seems off the mark, especially for a heifer replacement bull. But I'm trying to understand how to read EPD's better.

Vindicator:

CED-3.5, BW-1.8, WW-29, YW-42, MM-14, M&G-28, CEM-(-3.6), SC-0.1. ACC is mid 80's to mid 90's.



FELTONS MAGNUM 434:

CED-2.9, BW-3.1, WW-49, YW-80, MM-21, M&G-45, CEM-4.2, SC-1.0. ACC is all over, from low of 12 to high of 70.

While I was gathering info for this post, I did see how much a newer bull seem to change in their EPD's. I like the BRL Call 100 Bull but in just a few months his BW has gone way up and his MM has gone up from 22 to 24. While his WW and YW has dropped a little.

Thanks for any and all input.

Alan

Alan

It is NOT a numbers game. Epd's are a guide only. The more data available the more accurate the numbers.

You also have to factor in your own existing animals.

You want some serious advice - try this.

Take some no kidding decent pics of the cows you want to breed - front, side and rear.

Then pick out the bulls you are considering.

Let the folks have at on this site.

Otherwise all of the advice you receive is - as a rule - fairly worthless.

Or, you can go out and find a decent looking animal with a light birth weight and breed for this year - allowing you MUCH more time to think on this.

Regards,

Bez!

 

[TR]

Being my first time to AI this year, and having the world at my fingertips as far as quality bulls to select from, I got overwhelmed very quickly with all the choices. So I sort of came up with a process this year to select AI bulls for the girls.

I did a search on the Herford Assoc site for bulls with the EPD's I was looking for to compliment the girls' EPD's. Low BW, high WW, more maternal, those sorts of things. Then when I got my search results, I selected those bulls with the bloodlines I like and those that were older and more proven (higher accuracies). Then I went out and googled each and every bull out of that list to see if I could find pics of him, his mother, and his daughters, and get an idea of what the herd was like that he came from. Then if his pic, progeny and ancestry passed muster, I selected and matched the individual bull with the phenotype that would compliment each heifer's phenotype. Then I asked a few select individuals who raise Herefords and whos programs I admire what their opinion and thoughts on each individual bull selected for each heifer were. AND I listened to them!

Can't tell you how well it worked as the calves won't be here until October, but I had to do something! There were just so many to chose from!

 

[Alan]

Talk on another post about Vindicator, looking at his EPD's please explain why he would be better to use than another bull I'll put a couple up to compare to. My thought that Vindicator has good BW, to me everything seems off the mark, especially for a heifer replacement bull. But I'm trying to understand how to read EPD's better.

Vindicator:

CED-3.5, BW-1.8, WW-29, YW-42, MM-14, M&G-28, CEM-(-3.6), SC-0.1. ACC is mid 80's to mid 90's.



FELTONS MAGNUM 434:

CED-2.9, BW-3.1, WW-49, YW-80, MM-21, M&G-45, CEM-4.2, SC-1.0. ACC is all over, from low of 12 to high of 70.

While I was gathering info for this post, I did see how much a newer bull seem to change in their EPD's. I like the BRL Call 100 Bull but in just a few months his BW has gone way up and his MM has gone up from 22 to 24. While his WW and YW has dropped a little.

Thanks for any and all input.

Alan

Alan

It is NOT a numbers game. Epd's are a guide only. The more data available the more accurate the numbers.

You also have to factor in your own existing animals.

You want some serious advice - try this.

Take some no kidding decent pics of the cows you want to breed - front, side and rear.

Then pick out the bulls you are considering.

Let the folks have at on this site.

Otherwise all of the advice you receive is - as a rule - fairly worthless.

Or, you can go out and find a decent looking animal with a light birth weight and breed for this year - allowing you MUCH more time to think on this.

Regards,

Bez!

Bez,
I'll do exactly that, good advice, would you like the pics before or after they calve? most of the herd is due any time so they look like blimps now, but I think in good shape for calving.

Alan

 

[Bez!]

Talk on another post about Vindicator, looking at his EPD's please explain why he would be better to use than another bull I'll put a couple up to compare to. My thought that Vindicator has good BW, to me everything seems off the mark, especially for a heifer replacement bull. But I'm trying to understand how to read EPD's better.

Vindicator:

CED-3.5, BW-1.8, WW-29, YW-42, MM-14, M&G-28, CEM-(-3.6), SC-0.1. ACC is mid 80's to mid 90's.



FELTONS MAGNUM 434:

CED-2.9, BW-3.1, WW-49, YW-80, MM-21, M&G-45, CEM-4.2, SC-1.0. ACC is all over, from low of 12 to high of 70.

While I was gathering info for this post, I did see how much a newer bull seem to change in their EPD's. I like the BRL Call 100 Bull but in just a few months his BW has gone way up and his MM has gone up from 22 to 24. While his WW and YW has dropped a little.

Thanks for any and all input.

Alan

Alan

It is NOT a numbers game. Epd's are a guide only. The more data available the more accurate the numbers.

You also have to factor in your own existing animals.

You want some serious advice - try this.

Take some no kidding decent pics of the cows you want to breed - front, side and rear.

Then pick out the bulls you are considering.

Let the folks have at on this site.

Otherwise all of the advice you receive is - as a rule - fairly worthless.

Or, you can go out and find a decent looking animal with a light birth weight and breed for this year - allowing you MUCH more time to think on this.

Regards,

Bez!

Bez,
I'll do exactly that, good advice, would you like the pics before or after they calve? most of the herd is due any time so they look like blimps now, but I think in good shape for calving.

Alan

Off the top - what I would do is worry about calving first - give them a couple of weeks to get their feet under them - the cows that is.

Gather the info on what you would figure the bulls you MIGHT want to use.

Throw the pics and the list of sires at us. Be sure to list any info on the cows that might be of value. Age, weight, milking ability, mothering, and so on.

You might be surprized at how long the debate will rage :lol: , but if you put a two week limit on the decision - there will be some good and bad points brought out. All of it will fit with your plan and you can go ahead and breed to the preferences you make after reading all of the info provided by the members inputs.

JMO

Bez!

 

[Alan]

Talk on another post about Vindicator, looking at his EPD's please explain why he would be better to use than another bull I'll put a couple up to compare to. My thought that Vindicator has good BW, to me everything seems off the mark, especially for a heifer replacement bull. But I'm trying to understand how to read EPD's better.

Vindicator:

CED-3.5, BW-1.8, WW-29, YW-42, MM-14, M&G-28, CEM-(-3.6), SC-0.1. ACC is mid 80's to mid 90's.



FELTONS MAGNUM 434:

CED-2.9, BW-3.1, WW-49, YW-80, MM-21, M&G-45, CEM-4.2, SC-1.0. ACC is all over, from low of 12 to high of 70.

While I was gathering info for this post, I did see how much a newer bull seem to change in their EPD's. I like the BRL Call 100 Bull but in just a few months his BW has gone way up and his MM has gone up from 22 to 24. While his WW and YW has dropped a little.

Thanks for any and all input.

Alan

Alan

It is NOT a numbers game. Epd's are a guide only. The more data available the more accurate the numbers.

You also have to factor in your own existing animals.

You want some serious advice - try this.

Take some no kidding decent pics of the cows you want to breed - front, side and rear.

Then pick out the bulls you are considering.

Let the folks have at on this site.

Otherwise all of the advice you receive is - as a rule - fairly worthless.

Or, you can go out and find a decent looking animal with a light birth weight and breed for this year - allowing you MUCH more time to think on this.

Regards,

Bez!

Bez,
I'll do exactly that, good advice, would you like the pics before or after they calve? most of the herd is due any time so they look like blimps now, but I think in good shape for calving.

Alan

Off the top - what I would do is worry about calving first - give them a couple of weeks to get their feet under them - the cows that is.

Gather the info on what you would figure the bulls you MIGHT want to use.

Throw the pics and the list of sires at us. Be sure to list any info on the cows that might be of value. Age, weight, milking ability, mothering, and so on.

You might be surprized at how long the debate will rage :lol: , but if you put a two week limit on the decision - there will be some good and bad points brought out. All of it will fit with your plan and you can go ahead and breed to the preferences you make after reading all of the info provided by the members inputs.

JMO

Bez!

Thanks, I'll do just that... just don't hit me in the head so hard!

 

[Brandonm2]

On Jim Reed's website, he warns that: "Due to AHA policy changes, some bulls only have older EPD's". Something to do with trouble merging the databases....I THINK. I doubt this would apply to still heavily used bulls like Vindicator (a 1973 model); but I would talk to somebody more knowledgable about which bulls EPDs are still being updated and which are artificially frozen in time. Logic and those EPDs tells me that Felton's Magnum 434 would outperform Vindicator; but Vindicator has many many more daughters in production so is less of a risk (1996 daughters to 1).

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 2=43425C5F

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... D&9=525C50

 

[DOC HARRIS]

TR - With your being a 'Process Consultant', I can see that you applied your philosophy of Business to the Process of Selection! The Basic Principle of "Plan Your Work - and - Work Your Plan" seems to function as well in any BU$INE$$, and the way you methodically went about your AI selections seems to me to be just about perfect. If your calves don't turn out the way you anticipate - it certainly won't be because YOU made an error of omission!

DOC HARRIS

 

[la4angus]

the way you methodically went about your AI selections seems to me to be just about perfect. If your calves don't turn out the way you anticipate - it certainly won't be because YOU made an error of omission!DOC HARRIS

She can always pass the blame on to me. :lol:

 

[shutskytj]

TR I am a hereford breeder to would you share with us who you came up with and why? Just curious

 

[jkwilson]

I hate the concept of selecting bulls by EPDs. Find some bulls you like by how they look and how they're built and by what they would add to your cows. Then look at the EPDs. IMO, EPDs are not meant to be used directly, but to be used to compare two animals.
If that cow is standing in front of me with a big, correct udder nursing a big, thick healthy calf, I don't care what the EPDs say.

 

[Alan]

I hate the concept of selecting bulls by EPDs. Find some bulls you like by how they look and how they're built and by what they would add to your cows. Then look at the EPDs. IMO, EPDs are not meant to be used directly, but to be used to compare two animals.
If that cow is standing in front of me with a big, correct udder nursing a big, thick healthy calf, I don't care what the EPDs say.

But if the cow standing infront of you does'nt milk as well as you like (and you don't want to cull her) how do you find a bull to improve the MM EPD? If you don't have access to a bunch of his daughter to compare udders and milk rate how else do you do it beside EPD"S?

Thanks,
Alan

 

[jkwilson]

But if the cow standing infront of you does'nt milk as well as you like (and you don't want to cull her) how do you find a bull to improve the MM EPD? If you don't have access to a bunch of his daughter to compare udders and milk rate how else do you do it beside EPD"S?

Thanks,
Alan

Well, there's the catch. I just don't like the way EPDs are being treated as absolute. The AHA website lets you search animals by EPD, so that's always a good way to start, but seeing the animal in front of you is the proof.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

One of the first things I would point out is that Vindicator is a proven calving ease sire as few other bulls are. His EPDs are quite good for a bull of his vintage, and the MM is pretty close to breed average right now. His daughters are well known for udder quality and making good mommas. If I was AIing, had a group of heifers that I didn't want to take chances with, and wanted the option to keep some herd builders out of those heifers, Vindicator makes a lot of sense to me. You might then want to put 434 on his daughters.

How many have actually gone to Reed's website and viewed his picture, or as I do, have an early 80's model Polled Hereford World with his photo in it? I think he is a pretty good looking bull. I believe he was sired by a grand champion show bull, but was a better bull than his sire if you look at the progeny.