commercial vs registered

[newcattleman]

I live in SE Iowa. I have been raising a few (9-12)commercial cow and calves for a few years. Last year I tried to increase my herd size and that did not go as planned. I rented some ground and increased to 30 cows. Only 6 cows got bred, so I pounded out the bull and open cows. I also have 16 weaned calves (3-350lbs)(mostly steers).

I'm trying to figure out what to do from here. I was going to calve, rebreed (through AI), and keep the 6 cows. The calves I thought I would feed until May, sell, then buy and grow a new group until October. In October I would buy more cows to get back to 9-12.
I cant afford to restock the rented pasture, so I wont rent that again this year. I can only run about 9-12 cows at home, depending on hay to offset pasture.

I thought about replacing the herd with registered cows but I don't know if it would be worth it. Would it be beneficial to get registered stock vs. commercial stock at this size? What benefits would be available? I don't know anything about registered cattle other than selling breeding stock? Should I keep the calves longer and sell them bred or until bulls are ready to breed?
I also thought about selling the calves and running a dry lot for 3-600lb. calves?

I would appreciate any advice you can give.

 

[wbvs58]

If the rented ground is any good I would be putting the extra money you plan to spend on registered cattle to buying some trade cattle for the rented ground so that you get to hang on to it. I don't know what it is like there but good paddocks to rent are often hard to come by so I wouldn't be chopping and changing.
Ken

 

[fenceman]

I don't know about where you are but here you do everything you can to keep a lease from getting away from you.

 

[angus9259]

As far as I can tell there's no way to make money on 10 cows registered or commercial so I'd say do what you want. It's a hobby and you should do what you think will be most fun for you.

 

[boondocks]

As far as I can tell there's no way to make money on 10 cows registered or commercial so I'd say do what you want. It's a hobby and you should do what you think will be most fun for you.

Jeez now ya tell me!
12 head here. Am pencilling out hay and other costs and wondering what the heck I'm doing! Other than aging my poor back beyond its years

 

[Till-Hill]

As far as I can tell there's no way to make money on 10 cows registered or commercial so I'd say do what you want. It's a hobby and you should do what you think will be most fun for you.

Jeez now ya tell me!
12 head here. Am pencilling out hay and other costs and wondering what the heck I'm doing! Other than aging my poor back beyond its years

angus9259 I'm sorry but that's pretty blunt there. It will be very tough to make money on 10 cows but registered cows would be easy as they should be worth more per head so in turn they would bring down overhead per head. I've owned cows my whole life. Done 5 different things with them. Finally stuck to my guns and went to mostly registered cows and focused on cows and not just bulls/sires. It took the better part of 10 years but we are finally turning some money. Sold heifers for average of $3050 last two years. Sold pairs for $3,500, bred cows for $3,000. Not huge money but I can't afford to have commercial cows for what we have been doing. Will I ever hit the big time? Time will tell but with Genomics around now really changed the game. 1 hair sample could be the difference in a $1,000 sale barn steer and the next bull who sells a million units of semen.

 

[dun]

We are about half commercial and half registered. Down to about 2 dozen cows now. The main reason we started into the registered stuff was to sell seedstock on a very limited scale. Those that are good enough for commercial use we keep or sell as replacements but not registered. Those not suitable for breeding stock go to the feedlot. Well they used to go to the feedlot, now we just sell them at the salebarn. One advantage of registered is the amount of data available including EPDs. To make registered pay you almost have to sell at formal registered sales. You have to become known outside of your immediate area. We used to sell at the annual MO Red Angus Assoc. sale. That opened up a wider base for selling once we became known for quality animals. It takes time. A couple of years ago a woman from way southern MO was interested in buying 1 or 2 cows. They came up and looked over the cows and got prices on specific animals. A week later she/they came back and bought 20 some odd head.
Some years the vets daughters will show a heifer or bull at the county fair for us plus they always buy a couple of market steers from us and show them too. That has gotten us better known locally. What I'm trying to get across is you have to market the registered stuff or you won;t sell them for anymore then commercial.
The guy that owns the local salebarn has bought bulls and a couple of cows from us (outside of the auction) so when we have anything that goes to the salebarn it gets talked up pretty well from the auctioneer.
I've prattled on long enough and I'm still not sure if I've said what I intended. You have to have quality and get to be known for it and integrity, otherwise just staying commercial works. But that rep will also help with the commercial side.

 

[angus9259]

angus9259 I'm sorry but that's pretty blunt there. It will be very tough to make money on 10 cows but registered cows would be easy as they should be worth more per head so in turn they would bring down overhead per head. I've owned cows my whole life. Done 5 different things with them. Finally stuck to my guns and went to mostly registered cows and focused on cows and not just bulls/sires. It took the better part of 10 years but we are finally turning some money. Sold heifers for average of $3050 last two years. Sold pairs for $3,500, bred cows for $3,000. Not huge money but I can't afford to have commercial cows for what we have been doing. Will I ever hit the big time? Time will tell but with Genomics around now really changed the game. 1 hair sample could be the difference in a $1,000 sale barn steer and the next bull who sells a million units of semen.

I raise registered as well. Making money with registered cattle is not easy. You yourself said it took the better part of 10 years before you started making a profit. Then you said "not huge money". This is all my point. If you add in the time and cost for ai, embryo transplant, research, travel, genetic disorders, customer complaints, death of your new "premium genomics", etc..... Then you're probably still behind the 8 ball. Which is fine if you enjoy it. Which is my point.

Also - have you ever seen a bull that's sold a million units of semen come from a 10 cow herd that's just raising registered stock in their back yard? Not that you couldn't raise the same quality but you don't have the name unless you're advertising, showing, and paying $50,000 for some pre-existing names.

This is all before you get to the inherent VALUE of crossbreds - hybrid vigor, health, minimization of genetic issues, tracking, association dues, etc...

Do what you enjoy or you will be :bang:

 

[True Grit Farms]

I raise registered as well. Making money with registered cattle is not easy. You yourself said it took the better part of 10 years before you started making a profit. Then you said "not huge money". This is all my point. If you add in the time and cost for ai, embryo transplant, research, travel, genetic disorders, customer complaints, death of your new "premium genomics", etc..... Then you're probably still behind the 8 ball. Which is fine if you enjoy it. Which is my point.

Also - have you ever seen a bull that's sold a million units of semen come from a 10 cow herd that's just raising registered stock in their back yard? Not that you couldn't raise the same quality but you don't have the name unless you're advertising, showing, and paying $50,000 for some pre-existing names.

This is all before you get to the inherent VALUE of crossbreds - hybrid vigor, health, minimization of genetic issues, tracking, association dues, etc...

Do what you enjoy or you will be :bang:[/quote]

Excellent post. I'm not buying a bull from a small outfit. Even though the quality of the animal might be as good or better. Any animal that's pampered is going to look better than it really is. And the small mom and dad outfits pamper there cows.

 

[Till-Hill]

angus9259, easy was the wrong word. In the end yes registered cows are more work. Collecting birthweights, weaning, yearling, scaninng, ect.

I just don't want to discourage someone from registered cattle. If they don't spend the time you can always make them commercial cattle.

The time I spend with my cows I do enjoy. The customer end is one of the greatest parts and the worst.

I do not know of a bull yet that came from a 10 cow herd sell a million doses. With Genomics it will become a possibility. It has started out a lot of dairies in last few years that didn't even know that had great cattle. In the dairy world we are seeing new names every bull run.

But showing and selling at state sales and the internet is a great way to get your name out there if you cull hard, always remain honest and keep quality high.

I'll always remember my grandpa telling me this story and I've heard it several times over the years. And I'll admit I'm a dreamer, it's what gets me out of bed most days and makes the mud, snow and that death of a animal bearable.

http://www.angushall.com/documents/pdf/ ... -Story.pdf

 

[Rafter S]

As far as I can tell there's no way to make money on 10 cows registered or commercial so I'd say do what you want. It's a hobby and you should do what you think will be most fun for you.

Jeez now ya tell me!
12 head here. Am pencilling out hay and other costs and wondering what the heck I'm doing! Other than aging my poor back beyond its years

You're having fun. Right?

 

[Till-Hill]

I raise registered as well. Making money with registered cattle is not easy. You yourself said it took the better part of 10 years before you started making a profit. Then you said "not huge money". This is all my point. If you add in the time and cost for ai, embryo transplant, research, travel, genetic disorders, customer complaints, death of your new "premium genomics", etc..... Then you're probably still behind the 8 ball. Which is fine if you enjoy it. Which is my point.

Also - have you ever seen a bull that's sold a million units of semen come from a 10 cow herd that's just raising registered stock in their back yard? Not that you couldn't raise the same quality but you don't have the name unless you're advertising, showing, and paying $50,000 for some pre-existing names.

This is all before you get to the inherent VALUE of crossbreds - hybrid vigor, health, minimization of genetic issues, tracking, association dues, etc...

Do what you enjoy or you will be :bang:

Excellent post. I'm not buying a bull from a small outfit. Even though the quality of the animal might be as good or better. Any animal that's pampered is going to look better than it really is. And the small mom and dad outfits pamper there cows.[/quote]
True Grit, I invite you to stop on over and take a look at my outfit. There's no pampering going on here. Them big outfits (and I've been to several "Big Names") feed their cows TMR all year round, creep feed calves from the second they hit the ground and some of their donor cows raise one calf and are in a box stall the rest of their life. We have bought bulls from bigger outfits and I have wrecked them, they can't hold up, get mean, or don't last. I suspect we will keep raising our own.

 

[SteppedInIt]

I live in SE Iowa. I have been raising a few (9-12)commercial cow and calves for a few years. Last year I tried to increase my herd size and that did not go as planned. I rented some ground and increased to 30 cows. Only 6 cows got bred, so I pounded out the bull and open cows. I also have 16 weaned calves (3-350lbs)(mostly steers).

I'm trying to figure out what to do from here. I was going to calve, rebreed (through AI), and keep the 6 cows. The calves I thought I would feed until May, sell, then buy and grow a new group until October. In October I would buy more cows to get back to 9-12.
I cant afford to restock the rented pasture, so I wont rent that again this year. I can only run about 9-12 cows at home, depending on hay to offset pasture.

I thought about replacing the herd with registered cows but I don't know if it would be worth it. Would it be beneficial to get registered stock vs. commercial stock at this size? What benefits would be available? I don't know anything about registered cattle other than selling breeding stock? Should I keep the calves longer and sell them bred or until bulls are ready to breed?
I also thought about selling the calves and running a dry lot for 3-600lb. calves?

I would appreciate any advice you can give.

I would think about selling your steers when you think the market would bring the best short term price. That or try to market the steers private treaty for more $ than what you would get at the barn. This will give you a taste of dealing with folks that you will need to sell registered stock. You will not get premiums on registered stock at the sale barn. Anyway, sell your steers and buy a registered bull that will breed your cows. From there you can start buying registered cows as you go. There are advantages to registered cattle, but this is a whole other topic. There are also a lot of traps. You will also catch a lot of BS from others about registered cattle and having a small herd. Don't listen to them.

 

[SteppedInIt]

I raise registered as well. Making money with registered cattle is not easy. You yourself said it took the better part of 10 years before you started making a profit. Then you said "not huge money". This is all my point. If you add in the time and cost for ai, embryo transplant, research, travel, genetic disorders, customer complaints, death of your new "premium genomics", etc..... Then you're probably still behind the 8 ball. Which is fine if you enjoy it. Which is my point.

Also - have you ever seen a bull that's sold a million units of semen come from a 10 cow herd that's just raising registered stock in their back yard? Not that you couldn't raise the same quality but you don't have the name unless you're advertising, showing, and paying $50,000 for some pre-existing names.

This is all before you get to the inherent VALUE of crossbreds - hybrid vigor, health, minimization of genetic issues, tracking, association dues, etc...

Do what you enjoy or you will be :bang:

Excellent post. I'm not buying a bull from a small outfit. Even though the quality of the animal might be as good or better. Any animal that's pampered is going to look better than it really is. And the small mom and dad outfits pamper there cows.

True Grit, I invite you to stop on over and take a look at my outfit. There's no pampering going on here. Them big outfits (and I've been to several "Big Names") feed their cows TMR all year round, creep feed calves from the second they hit the ground and some of their donor cows raise one calf and are in a box stall the rest of their life. We have bought bulls from bigger outfits and I have wrecked them, they can't hold up, get mean, or don't last. I suspect we will keep raising our own.

I agree w you Till-Hill. Guys who wont buy a good bull from a small breeder, I don't want to be associated with that kind of thinking. This is the crap to ignore. I like dealing with sensible people because common sense cattlemen will buy your product when they see your management and quality.

Edit to try and fix all the jacked up quotes. LOL

 

[dun]

Guys who wont buy a good bull from a small breeder, I don't want to be associated with that kind of thinking. This is the crap to ignore. I like dealing with sensible people because common sense cattlemen will buy your product when they see your management and quality.

Highlighted the important part. I've also seen too many of the big guys keep dam near every bull so they will have something to sell from cheap to real expensive.
We invite anyone that wants to to look over our managment. When we first started selling cattle at the MO Red Angus sale we didn;t do very well because they were in their working clothes, hadn;t been pumped up to be pretty. By the third year we were selling right with the top stuff. People had come to realize that we sold cattle that worked in unpampered(unsupplmented) environments.
We also only sell as breeders something that we would keep for ourselves.

 

[Till-Hill]

Yes sir Mr. Dun. We sell most of our Bulls as two year old after we have used them on our own and customer Cattle. We cut over 50% most years over 90%. Even tho we are over 85% AI born Calves. They got to grow and their dams have to be elite.

 

[boondocks]

As far as I can tell there's no way to make money on 10 cows registered or commercial so I'd say do what you want. It's a hobby and you should do what you think will be most fun for you.

Jeez now ya tell me!
12 head here. Am pencilling out hay and other costs and wondering what the heck I'm doing! Other than aging my poor back beyond its years

You're having fun. Right?

I'm am (but the lumbar and the pocketbook keep screaming at me like they're not! ;-)

 

[boondocks]

Our small herd is all registered, and all heifers and calves are from AI. We have recently sold 2 replacement heifers but we know we are not knowledegable enough about bulls to sell anything as a potential bull, so we cut them all at birth. We do have some other Angus folks around; at some point I would like to learn better how to size up a calf from the get-go (ie, which ones can you be sure need cut immediately, versus which ones should you wait on for a few months. I know it takes a while to know for sure, and BSE tests etc).

In just 2 seasons of AI, we are already seeing positive improvements in growth, while maintaining (knock wood) the hardiness of the foundation herd, which was extremely unpampered: fed just hay and minerals, no barn access in bitter weather, calving in mid-winter, no vaccines, castrated with an old knife, etc. You get the picture--very old school! That herd was run that way for many years, so those that survived and propagated seem very hardy and tailor-made for our environment.

 

[newcattleman]

thank you everyone. I think I will probably just stick to the commercial cow calf for now, and maybe run a few extra calves. Once I have done it a while longer I might switch over. It sounds like its mostly reputation that makes money with registered cattle and I don't have that yet. I think I will just take my small profit and make some upgrades a while longer.

 

[cbcr]

newcattleman,

If you have good cows now and they are producing good quality offspring, it doesn't make sense to throw that away.

Another way to go and have registered cattle is thru upgrading. Most of the breeds still have that you can breed up to a purebred status (87%). Gelbvieh, Simmental, Charolais (93%), etc. It will depend on the breed you are considering as Angus, Hereford and a few other breeds have closed herdbooks and do not allow for upgrading.

And if that won't fit into your plans, then you can take some of your profit and use that and purchase registered animals to add in or replace older cows.

It does take time to be recognized for having quality breeding and animals, no matter if they are commercial or registered.