Clover Question

[JRGidaho`]

If the soil needs P and 18-46-0 is all you can get, I would definitely still put it on. Maybe 150 lb material/acre. That would 69 lb P which would really help the clover situation with only 27 lb N. As I said earlier, do a good job of keeping the N-stimulated fescue in check in the spring and you can still get a good clover take.

I think a lot of people who have not had good success with interseeding clover may not be managing the spring grass competition aggresively enough. We try to it fescue hard early and then rest it as the clovers start coming on.

I wasn't trying to say earlier that lime and P, K, S, B are not important for good clover production. I was just saying you don't have to have everything perfect to get started, as long as you manage the competition.

 

[JRGidaho`]

I may be wrong but doesn't clover like calcareous soils?

Yes, some clovers really thrive on calcareous soils, but it isn't necessary for them to do well as long as other needs are taken care of. A lot of the white clovers will do reasonably well with pH in mid-5 range while alsike clvoer doesn't start doing really well until pH is over 7.

There are other legumes that do better at lower pH than clovers in general. Lespedeza and trefoil being two good examples.

 

[novatech]

A good article;
http://www.noble.org/Ag/Forage/Nitrogen ... /Index.htm

 

[JRGidaho`]

A good article;
http://www.noble.org/Ag/Forage/Nitrogen ... /Index.htm

Good link, nova. Something to realize when you read this article, they showed clover in pastures to be more cost effective than N-fertilized pastures when the N was only costing 30 cents/lb. Clover is even more valuable when N is costing 50-60 cents/lb.

 

[Lucky_P]

hillbilly,
Early March is NOT too late to frost seed clover in KY - and if the cows are still running on this pasture, they'll assure soil contact by treading it in. The old saw about - you gotta have 12, 10, or however many freeze-thaw cycles to work the seed into soil contact is just that - an old saw. There's nothing magic about how many freeze-thaws you go through. One or two may be all you need, and if there's bare ground or a hoofprint, the clover has a ready-made place to get going.
You say you're using nitrate like crack - well, there's the problem. Nitrate fertilization favors grass growth over clover, so you're putting your clover at a disadvantage. JRG makes a very good point about grazing management to favor clovers in the mix.

As an aside, I've got a shagbark hickory cultivar named "Polly's Bend" - I presume it was selected there by someone who recognized how good it was; graftwood passed on to me by my friend Doug Hines.

 

[dun]

hillbilly,
Early March is NOT too late to frost seed clover in KY - and if the cows are still running on this pasture, they'll assure soil contact by treading it in. The old saw about - you gotta have 12, 10, or however many freeze-thaw cycles to work the seed into soil contact is just that - an old saw. There's nothing magic about how many freeze-thaws you go through. One or two may be all you need, and if there's bare ground or a hoofprint, the clover has a ready-made place to get going.
You say you're using nitrate like crack - well, there's the problem. Nitrate fertilization favors grass growth over clover, so you're putting your clover at a disadvantage. JRG makes a very good point about grazing management to favor clovers in the mix.

As an aside, I've got a shagbark hickory cultivar named "Polly's Bend" - I presume it was selected there by someone who recognized how good it was; graftwood passed on to me by my friend Doug Hines.

It might be an old saw but the years we didn;t get the good freeze thatws we got squat for clover the years when we did we got good stands. But thats just anecdotal, but it's worked for us

 

[TSR]

hillbilly,
Early March is NOT too late to frost seed clover in KY - and if the cows are still running on this pasture, they'll assure soil contact by treading it in. The old saw about - you gotta have 12, 10, or however many freeze-thaw cycles to work the seed into soil contact is just that - an old saw. There's nothing magic about how many freeze-thaws you go through. One or two may be all you need, and if there's bare ground or a hoofprint, the clover has a ready-made place to get going.
You say you're using nitrate like crack - well, there's the problem. Nitrate fertilization favors grass growth over clover, so you're putting your clover at a disadvantage. JRG makes a very good point about grazing management to favor clovers in the mix.

As an aside, I've got a shagbark hickory cultivar named "Polly's Bend" - I presume it was selected there by someone who recognized how good it was; graftwood passed on to me by my friend Doug Hines.

I agree. I wouldn't be too scared to sow clover now. Over the years the seasons have moved up about a month imo. When I was a child we used to kill hogs in Nov. now I see hay being cut in Nov. sometimes. I think you'll be ok, it would have been nice though, if you could have sown it on top of the snow.

 

[novatech]

hillbilly,
Early March is NOT too late to frost seed clover in KY - and if the cows are still running on this pasture, they'll assure soil contact by treading it in. The old saw about - you gotta have 12, 10, or however many freeze-thaw cycles to work the seed into soil contact is just that - an old saw. There's nothing magic about how many freeze-thaws you go through. One or two may be all you need, and if there's bare ground or a hoofprint, the clover has a ready-made place to get going.
You say you're using nitrate like crack - well, there's the problem. Nitrate fertilization favors grass growth over clover, so you're putting your clover at a disadvantage. JRG makes a very good point about grazing management to favor clovers in the mix.

As an aside, I've got a shagbark hickory cultivar named "Polly's Bend" - I presume it was selected there by someone who recognized how good it was; graftwood passed on to me by my friend Doug Hines.

It might be an old saw but the years we didn;t get the good freeze thatws we got squat for clover the years when we did we got good stands. But thats just anecdotal, but it's worked for us

I think a lot of this may have more to do with variety than anything else. There are a lot of other seeds that germinate better with the temperature variables. Some clovers may need the freeze thaw to get a higher percentage, but other clover seem not to care. We plant clovers adapted to our area in mid September. The rate of germination seems to be dependant on days of moisture. Some clover will germinate well but do not have the sustainability if the ph is out of their tolerance level. Ph makes the nutrients available to the newly germinated clover. From what I have read inoculates have no effect on germination. The only thing they do is enable the clove to produce nodules for nitrogen production.

 

[novatech]

A good article;
http://www.noble.org/Ag/Forage/Nitrogen ... /Index.htm

Good link, nova. Something to realize when you read this article, they showed clover in pastures to be more cost effective than N-fertilized pastures when the N was only costing 30 cents/lb. Clover is even more valuable when N is costing 50-60 cents/lb.

When I sent my soil sample in one year I specified that I would be planting clover in the fall and tifton in the spring. Their reply was to add no N for the first cutting of hay.
I have read other reports that state clover can add a hundred lbs. plus of N per acre to the soil even when it is being grazed. That goes a long way toward the cost of planting especially if you do not have to reseed.

 

[hillbillycwo]

I am considering doing one pasture at a time with renovation. Unless I get the grant money I applied for then I will do two this fall and no ammonia in the spring with frost seed clover for them. The other pastures and hay fields will get fescue(endofyte free) and red clover drilled in this fall around August after I take fall hay off. It may drive me to feed hay earlier than I want too but the next three years will more than cover the cost of the extra hay. And Dun just for you, the weather this spring and summer will drive the plan. Last year we took three cuttings off the fescue. To manage our rotational grazing we had to bale hay from some of our pasture. But then again the home farm is in proper balnce PH wise and fertillizer wise. I am trying to balance the hay production with the improvements what a pain in the you know. Thanks a bunch for the advice and the guidance. I am considering doing some clover this March in two small areas I have set aside as emergency grass. One is 1.5 acres and the other is about two acres. This will be an inexspensive trial. I will broadcast 10 pounds per acre in those areas and see what happens. I am also considering mixing in some clover seed into the feed I give twice a week as a way to scatter seed. I read that the seed passes through the cow and is automatically in good soil to germinate. Has anyone tried that at all?

 

[Douglas]

^ there was someone on here recently who was experimenting with adding clover to their minerals, but i have not seen any results posted.

 

[JRGidaho`]

From what I understand, only the hard seed passes through the rumen undigested. If the cow grazes a clover plant that has mature seed on it, up to 80-90% can pass through the cow and still germinate.

Once the seed is harvested and stored, the hard seed content decreases and the readily germinable seed increases. The readily germinable seed can be digested in the rumen. Thus, the longer the seed has been harvested and stored the less intact seed passes through the rumen to reach the soil. If your seed tag says 90% germination, then up to 90% can be digested. If seed cost $1/lb, then the seed that actually passes through the rumen and germinates may be costing $9-10/lb. Makes an electric seeder on the ATV look cheap.

Another consideration is how are the manure piles distributed across the pasture. Set stock in the summer time in the Midwest usually only gets manure piles on about 2% of the pasture area. It would take a lot of years to get much clover out there at that rate. Daily rotation on a pasture producing 4T/acre in 5 or 6 grazing cycles will get manure piles on about 50% of the surface area but you would need to feed seed in the mix throughout the season. Just food for thought.

 

[dun]

^ there was someone on here recently who was experimenting with adding clover to their minerals, but i have not seen any results posted.

There are people around here that swear by it. If the inoculant is already in the soil it shoudlnt be a problem but if it's the first time you're going to not get the benefit of the nitrogen fixation that you would hope for