Clover Question

[hillbillycwo]

I am considering frost seeding clover early in March. My ammonia is going on end of March. The pasture is currently KY-31 fescue. Some fields the fescue is super thick(bottom land) and the hills the fescue is of course thinner. The question is will the clover have enough timne to get established before the grass comes on from the added nitrogen. The farm hasn't been fertillized or limed in 20 years. I am cleaning it up and trying to build the soil back up. Any recommendations? I will pull soil tests this summer in preperation for the fall P,K and Lime applications. My farm is in Central Kentucky, heart of the fescue belt. Thanks.

 

[dun]

Not enough freeze/thaw cycles left to get good soil contact from frost seeding. Drilliing would be better this late in the year

 

[novatech]

I am considering frost seeding clover early in March. My ammonia is going on end of March. The pasture is currently KY-31 fescue. Some fields the fescue is super thick(bottom land) and the hills the fescue is of course thinner. The question is will the clover have enough timne to get established before the grass comes on from the added nitrogen. The farm hasn't been fertillized or limed in 20 years. I am cleaning it up and trying to build the soil back up. Any recommendations? I will pull soil tests this summer in preperation for the fall P,K and Lime applications. My farm is in Central Kentucky, heart of the fescue belt. Thanks.

Adding N on top of clover is not a good idea. Unless it is a very minor amount it would probably kill it. But as dun said to late anyway.

 

[shaz]

Your situation sounds alot like mine. I would no-till in the fall.

What's your plan for liming those hills?

 

[hillbillycwo]

Thanks for the inputs. That is what I was considering Dun but with the moisture content in the ground it looks like August or September to drill in some fescue and clover. I don't like feeding hay right now as the ground is so wet. I plan on having the Lime scatered in a granuale form with a truck from the mill. I haven't decided as of yet on any of the other particulars. Those will depend on the outcome of the soil test.

I will more than likely stockpile the bottoms and hay fields after the fall cutting and seed the pastures then in the spring nitro the pastures more heavily and try to catch the ground in condition to frost seed the cloverin the hay fields. But that plan may change based on weather and guidance from you guys. Thanks again.

 

[dun]

EArly fall just drill the clover. Then it will be ready to go in the spring. Remember you can;t fix in one year what took multiple years to get screwed up. Fertility, weed control, interseeding, they all take time to do them right without undoing some of what has already been accomplished

 

[hillbillycwo]

Dun,
I just don't want to throw money away on clover seed. If the soil is too bad to grow it PH wise that is should I lime it this fall and seed or maybe just maximize my fesue output for a few seasons until I get the PH and fertility suitable for the clover? I am also applying each year for the grant fnding as it is available. I have applied for funding for about 15 acres this year to renovate. Only thing is I do not particularly like the grass blends they approve but they do pay for a lot of lime and fertillizer.

 

[dun]

Depending on how far out of wack your ph and fertility is, seeding clover may not pay the biggest dividends but unless it's really horrible the vlocer will still do some good.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Thanks Dun. That is what I am hoping. If the PH is close the clover will save me on ammonia and I can use those funds to apply a little more lime to sweeten the ground. Well it is a plan anyway. Failure to plan is a plan to fail right? :lol:

 

[dun]

Failure to plan is a plan to fail right? :lol:

That's kind of like the Plan the work then work the plan. Great in theory but sure doesn;t allow any flexibility. In tyhis business if you aren;t flexible you're not going to get any where. I berlieve more in goals then plans

 

[shaz]

Thanks Dun. That is what I am hoping. If the PH is close the clover will save me on ammonia and I can use those funds to apply a little more lime to sweeten the ground. Well it is a plan anyway. Failure to plan is a plan to fail right? :lol:

To be honest, I spend $500 every year on clover. Have not found the magic formula yet. PH is fine 6.0 or better but a credible clover crop still escapes me. I'm still using nitrate like crack.

I only bring it up because your farm sounds so much like mine and I've spent a fortune on clover in vain.
Hope your luck is better.

 

[JRGidaho`]

Hey hillbilly,

Remember it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You could just do part of the fields this spring and save some for later in the fall. Leave the N off about a third of your pastures and go ahead and put clover out this spring with a no-till drill. I agree with dun that you're a little late for good frost seeding as far south as you are, but the drill would work well right now.

I lived a couple of years in the bluegrass region (Nicholasville) back in the late 70s. We no-tilled legumes in the middle of March with good success.

I've also grown a lot of good red clover on pH 4.2 to 5 soils in MO so I'm not as worried as some people about fertility conditions as long as you get the seed into contact with the soil and then keep the fescue under control with some tight grazing in the spring. I think spring grazing management has more to do with how good a clover catch you get than does soil fertility.

JR

 

[shaz]

Hey hillbilly,

Remember it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You could just do part of the fields this spring and save some for later in the fall. Leave the N off about a third of your pastures and go ahead and put clover out this spring with a no-till drill. I agree with dun that you're a little late for good frost seeding as far south as you are, but the drill would work well right now.

I lived a couple of years in the bluegrass region (Nicholasville) back in the late 70s. We no-tilled legumes in the middle of March with good success.

I've also grown a lot of good red clover on pH 4.2 to 5 soils in MO so I'm not as worried as some people about fertility conditions as long as you get the seed into contact with the soil and then keep the fescue under control with some tight grazing in the spring. I think spring grazing management has more to do with how good a clover catch you get than does soil fertility.

JR

Would you let the clover seed out before you graze? Would you put out 0 nitrogen even if the only phosphate you could get is 18-46-0?
You've apparently had luck with clover....I haven't. That's why I ask these questions

 

[novatech]

Hey hillbilly,

Remember it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You could just do part of the fields this spring and save some for later in the fall. Leave the N off about a third of your pastures and go ahead and put clover out this spring with a no-till drill. I agree with dun that you're a little late for good frost seeding as far south as you are, but the drill would work well right now.

I lived a couple of years in the bluegrass region (Nicholasville) back in the late 70s. We no-tilled legumes in the middle of March with good success.

I've also grown a lot of good red clover on pH 4.2 to 5 soils in MO so I'm not as worried as some people about fertility conditions as long as you get the seed into contact with the soil and then keep the fescue under control with some tight grazing in the spring. I think spring grazing management has more to do with how good a clover catch you get than does soil fertility.

JR

Would you let the clover seed out before you graze? Would you put out 0 nitrogen even if the only phosphate you could get is 18-46-0?
You've apparently had luck with clover....I haven't. That's why I ask these questions

I think letting the clover seed out is important. Especially the first few years of establishment.
The fertilizer is a problem. I have the same problem as you. No one around here does custom mixing. My soil test calls for 60 lbs of phosphorous per acre and nothing else. As far as N is concerned it will depend on what is already in the soil. The 18-46-0 would not have enough N to burn the clover but kick it off to a good start.
Although some clovers are tolerant of PH not being at the proper level, optimum growth can be accomplished by getting it right. Secondly proper PH is required for proper nodulation and microbial action. These are two important factors in producing the N for the upcoming warm season grasses and the protein content of the clover.

First do a soil test making sure that you inform the people doing the test that you will be growing clover. Then apply fertilizer accordingly. Since you cannot get the proper mix then apply what is as close as you can get. Do another soil test next season and do the same with the fertilizer. After a few years you will get pretty close. Lime and P are not an overnight result fertilizer. Both take time to work in the and with the soil. Excellent clover stands usually take a few years if you don't already have the right soil requirements for your particular clover in your particular environment. I would also recommend that you plant more than one type of clover that has been known to do well in your area. Then play survival of the fittest letting the most hardy take over , over time.
If trying to establish clovers one more thing is important. Be careful as to what herbicides are used around fields of clover. Even when they are not growing herbicides with residuals can effect next years growth.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Yep Dun, Flexibility is something I am still learning. Hard for a 24 year Navy man to flex sometimes. But am getting better at it. LOL. Hard to let go the fescue gains from the Nitrogen. That is why I was looking at the possibility of the fall application of Nitrogen being only in the hay fields this time for stockpiling purposes. I had good pasture until December 15 this year without it but then again no hay was taken off it this year. I bought the farm in October. This fall (August) is when I was thinking the hillside pastures would get a mix of red/ladino clover drilled in weather permitting. I will drill endophyte free fescue in all fields this fall there again weather permitting. I don't have the concerns of warm season grasses as I have none right now. The main establishment issue is dealing with the fescue response to nitrogen. That issue is what chokes out the clover. Next year the pastures would not get the nitrogen as early as this year. I would wait untill after the first round of grazing them then spread the nitrogen. But with Dun's advise of flexibility all could change dramatically depending on weather. :lol:

 

[hillbillycwo]

JR,
My family is from Polly's Bend in Garrad County. They were Crutchfield's and Burton's.

 

[novaman]

I may be wrong but doesn't clover like calcareous soils?

 

[hillbillycwo]

Nova,
Don't know about that. My soil is mostly Loam in the bottoms. Red clover and ladino seem to do very well on my Father-in-laws farm which is 1/2 mile away. So I figured as the soils are similar that it should do well on mine as well once the ph and P and K levels are where they need to be.

 

[dun]

all could change dramatically depending on weather. :lol:

See, you're already starting to catch on.

 

[novatech]

Nova,
Don't know about that. My soil is mostly Loam in the bottoms. Red clover and ladino seem to do very well on my Father-in-laws farm which is 1/2 mile away. So I figured as the soils are similar that it should do well on mine as well once the ph and P and K levels are where they need to be.

I can't argue with what works.