Clover and Chemical N Conundrum

[dave_shelby]

CV thank you for sharing. Always interesting.

I've read some studies that are critical of rotational grazing ability to sequester carbon. None of that lines up with no the fabulous soil in our prairies. Clearly stuff organic matte was deposited in soils. What nitrogen fixing plants grow in native short and tall grass prairie? I'm wondering if there are other ways plants can get nitrogen.

If you look on Christine's website she has a paper titled nitrogen the double edged sword which speaks about commercial N and P applications. She states that excess nitrogen interferes w biochemical signaling between plant and microbes which in turn reduces carbon moved from plant to soil. I think this may be similar to the OPs question. Now how any of that works is beyond me.

 

[Silver]

With regards to N, I'm fortunate to have a lot of organic matter, so given proper amounts of sunshine and moisture it produces adequate amounts of nitrogen.
A good thunder storm will proved bonus N.

 

[ClinchValley86]

CV thank you for sharing. Always interesting.

I've read some studies that are critical of rotational grazing ability to sequester carbon. None of that lines up with no the fabulous soil in our prairies. Clearly stuff organic matte was deposited in soils. What nitrogen fixing plants grow in native short and tall grass prairie? I'm wondering if there are other ways plants can get nitrogen.

If you look on Christine's website she has a paper titled nitrogen the double edged sword which speaks about commercial N and P applications. She states that excess nitrogen interferes w biochemical signaling between plant and microbes which in turn reduces carbon moved from plant to soil. I think this may be similar to the OPs question. Now how any of that works is beyond me.

Couple types of fungal colonies that did majority of that work to my understanding. The microbes just do the recycling and eating... if I understand correctly.

I try to wrap my head around it. Think I'd do better with some in-person and be able to ask questions. I like to ask questions. Lol.



It is a sales pitch while at the same time giving some good information and alternative approach to grazing. Listen with an open mind. It's speaking to soil carbon. I'm kind of thinking he's onto something.

 

[who cares]

In re to non legume and native grass or prairie Grass pastures dealing with nitrogen, there are actually lots of grass, bushes and weeds that do decent job on it - switchgrass has been studied for a while for it's ability to fix nitrogen, alder, vetch, ground nuts, sennas, and different berry bushes sequester more nitrogen around them than most legumes do.
I hadn't responded to this yesterday because I gave myself the night to remember the name of the guy that I listened to last fall on a pasture walk, talking about plants in native pastures that do this. I still cannot remember his name... He's from the university here so I should be able to find his name. But he said plants , grasses and bushes ability to do this even varies from pasture to pasture when they have done studies, different soils responses are different also. He said it's hard to give a generalized this Grass does this, when it does it in combination with other fungi's, other microbes, depending on the plants surrounding it etc.
Some day I'll remember his name

 

[dave_shelby]

Appreciate the information, I did not know N fixation occurs in plants beyond the legumes.

 

[kenny thomas]

In re to non legume and native grass or prairie Grass pastures dealing with nitrogen, there are actually lots of grass, bushes and weeds that do decent job on it - switchgrass has been studied for a while for it's ability to fix nitrogen, alder, vetch, ground nuts, sennas, and different berry bushes sequester more nitrogen around them than most legumes do.
I hadn't responded to this yesterday because I gave myself the night to remember the name of the guy that I listened to last fall on a pasture walk, talking about plants in native pastures that do this. I still cannot remember his name... He's from the university here so I should be able to find his name. But he said plants , grasses and bushes ability to do this even varies from pasture to pasture when they have done studies, different soils responses are different also. He said it's hard to give a generalized this Grass does this, when it does it in combination with other fungi's, other microbes, depending on the plants surrounding it etc.
Some day I'll remember his name

Honey Locust fixes nitrogen and their seed pods are high in protein. But i sure wouldn't advise planting them.

 

[chaded]

Honey Locust fixes nitrogen and their seed pods are high in protein. But i sure wouldn't advise planting them.

Autumn olive is another that fixes nitrogen. It also spreads like wildfire, shades everything out, not to mention its allelopathic nature which further destroys everything around it. Now if I just had goats, I can make it work.

 

[kenny thomas]

Autumn olive is another that fixes nitrogen. It also spreads like wildfire, shades everything out, not to mention its allelopathic nature which further destroys everything around it. Now if I just had goats, I can make it work.

The Forestry Department here grew and sold Autumn Olive by the millions for mine reclaimation until they found out it was illegal to sell an invasive species in VA. They disc under 700,000 that year. But it was too late. They spread everywhere.

 

[dave_shelby]

Finally got to listen to Jaime. I didn't ever think about how the loss of the large hind gut fermenters impacted the environment. However I thought hind gut fermenters were less efficient.

He did define overgrazing as regrazing before maturity and encouraged close graze. Interesting ...I think I'll subscribe to that master class.

 

[SoilBuilder]

Serradella is an acid soil tolerant legume that doesn't cause bloat Mark, it has its origins in Mediterrainian countries I believe.

Ken

is Serradella available for sale in the US? When i do a google search for seeds, i see a lot of sites from Australia and other countries, but not the US?

 

[SoilBuilder]

Honey Locust fixes nitrogen and their seed pods are high in protein. But i sure wouldn't advise planting them.

i planted the thornless hershey variety in my pastures to reduce my winter hay bill, YMMV. P.S. i have goats and sheep too.

 

[ClinchValley86]

i planted the thornless hershey variety in my pastures to reduce my winter hay bill, YMMV. P.S. i have goats and sheep too.

This a recent planting or have they had time to establish and yield forage? I am so very short on trees here. I need to be planting some. I need shade in the worst kind of way.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Finally got to listen to Jaime. I didn't ever think about how the loss of the large hind gut fermenters impacted the environment. However I thought hind gut fermenters were less efficient.

He did define overgrazing as regrazing before maturity and encouraged close graze. Interesting ...I think I'll subscribe to that master class.

I've been grazing his way since last year and it's been very much worth the effort.

He's the one that might get some of my money. He "seems" like a very humble person and i like his way of teaching.

 

[SoilBuilder]

This a recent planting or have they had time to establish and yield forage? I am so very short on trees here. I need to be planting some. I need shade in the worst kind of way.

recent planting, 2 years old. It will help my bahia grass production too. Bahia grass produces more forage under light shade. "One generation plants a tree, the next one gets the shade".

 

[who cares]

We have Mature thornless locust here that are gorgeous, spread but not overly ( palatable so animals eat the seedlings and trees) and provide tons of shade and fodder beans. Not sure what kind they are as they were planted in 75.
Is total grazing eating to the dirt and letting it recover or flattening a % of it and letting it add og to soil? I know who you are talking about, but I've not listened to him yet - the name total grazing is a turn off as people here use it interchangeably with continuous for some reason.
High intensity mob is similar and while f the experts may disagree with the fine points, they all say that the land must recover completely before you regraze. Some say long recovery of 1-2 years ( I notice those guys have more land ), to change soil and varieties.
Last year with our 3rd year drought, I laid a lot of my forage down to keep soil covered - i have some areas only 3-4 years since seeding and with drought it's thin. I let it get mature enough neighbor's who think I should make hay, cringed (I was going for quantity with decent nutrition), then I grazed and let them flatten 50-80%. It's back thicker than ever and looks excellent. I didn't get the cracks that were three to four feet deep like I did the year before with regular mob grazing with it a bit younger and higher quality.

 

[ClinchValley86]

We have Mature thornless locust here that are gorgeous, spread but not overly ( palatable so animals eat the seedlings and trees) and provide tons of shade and fodder beans. Not sure what kind they are as they were planted in 75.
Is total grazing eating to the dirt and letting it recover or flattening a % of it and letting it add og to soil? I know who you are talking about, but I've not listened to him yet - the name total grazing is a turn off as people here use it interchangeably with continuous for some reason.
High intensity mob is similar and while f the experts may disagree with the fine points, they all say that the land must recover completely before you regraze. Some say long recovery of 1-2 years ( I notice those guys have more land ), to change soil and varieties.
Last year with our 3rd year drought, I laid a lot of my forage down to keep soil covered - i have some areas only 3-4 years since seeding and with drought it's thin. I let it get mature enough neighbor's who think I should make hay, cringed (I was going for quantity with decent nutrition), then I grazed and let them flatten 50-80%. It's back thicker than ever and looks excellent. I didn't get the cracks that were three to four feet deep like I did the year before with regular mob grazing with it a bit younger and higher quality.

Eat it to the ground. Very high forage utilization. I'm seeing 90% of it eaten. The name "Total Grazing" is terrible. Lol. It is indeed a turnoff. It takes your mind to a certain place.

I realized this spring that I'm grazing his way, so have been paying him more attention.

A very good practitioner of his that does a YouTube channel is "Running T Farms Regenerative" Josh does a great job of explaining and sharing his observations. Gives a little different vibe about it all.

I'm seeing the same things he is. Im excited to graze the season long stockpile this fall and winter Lol. I'm such a nerd.

 

[ClinchValley86]

@who cares this is the recovery since May. It was eaten down to the soil. 100% exposed soil. But damn did it explode with growth.

First Pic was two weeks ago. Last two pics were back in May. That ground had rested since September/October of last year. We been in drought for three years too til this spring.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Running T Farms (Josh Teague)

Informative channel. He is a Total Grazing student and very easy to listen to.

https://youtube.com/@runningtfarmsnc?si=Y5gf36NyaWofBnPs
Total Grazing Guy (Jaime Elizondo) Real Wealth Ranching

Sometimes hard to understand, but very much worth the time IMO.

https://youtube.com/@realwealthranching?si=Waus3XQRoipkdczL

 

[wbvs58]

is Serradella available for sale in the US? When i do a google search for seeds, i see a lot of sites from Australia and other countries, but not the US?

Biserrula is another similar one.

Ken

 

[dave_shelby]

What exactly is "his way"/ total managed grazing?