Clover and Chemical N Conundrum

[who cares]

That gives me so much stress to see that short after years of drought (I'm still suffering from drought stress ). I have back fences that I move every single day so my cows never spend more than 12-24 hours on any patch of ground. My ground didn't even grow anything after September and was brown and cracked 2.5 years ago.
I think there's a lot of ways to end up with similar results. Gabe brown does long rests (240-600 days!) and talks about incredible forage results as long as your cows are adapted to low quality high fiber overly mature feeds. His stockpile looks like straw at times, his cows look good.
I'm stuck with only so much ability to experiment, as I can't stockpile like that due to not enough land. When Josh says he's going to leave a pasture for 400 days, I can't even fathom doing that - land here is crazy expensive to imagine not grazing once a year.
The total grazing guys are saying the roots and long rest adds tons of biomass. Me flattening 50% adds a ton and it grows back from roots fast. Just skimming pasture and leaving 2/3 Rd doesn't.
I don't know a single mob grazer who would say high intensity mob and fast moves allow cows to be selective grazers. The total graze are guys are talking about non-selective grazing pressure and that daily moves allow selective cows.
I am finishing animals here as well as milking dairy cows, so I can't force them to graze to the dirt or I lose pounds whether in meat or milk. The guys I've watched the last few days doing total grazing are also finishing "low and slow" or part of the slow meat movement. I am a fan of the "fastest I can get them to the butcher while raising prime meat" movement. I won't keep a steer through a second winter here because it adds a year of feed. So any small and under finished steers get dams evaluated and culled. Gabe Brown butchers at 3 years. You need a ton of cheap land to do that.
It's almost impossible for me to do so much damage to land in three days that it can't recover given enough rest. Even the areas cows stand and stomping and if it's muddy or bad heat, given rest it will come back. So I can see the convenience of leaving cows in a spot for 3 days.

 

[who cares]

This first picture - taken June 6 this year. Almost 5 foot grass. I grazed it 2x last year when it was 2-3 feet tall and took 40 rounds off 10 acres. Grazed it into end November.

Second picture was horrible drought land last year that I let go to seed, grazed and stomped it hard to cover soil to protect from 100f days. It's been grazed once this year end of May and is now 31 inches again. I did 5 passes on it last year at varying stages of it's growth. I also keep track of what time of year I go to it and rotate where the cows are and end so that I don't keep grazing the same areas the same time of year.
The best thing I ever did was stopped worrying about how mature the forage was getting.

 

[who cares]

Sorry, second picture would not load

 

[ClinchValley86]

Ah, I got lease ground last year and had lots of pressure removed from this place. That's how it happened.

The name total was really a terrible choice. Lol. I try to use "higher density grazing." But ol Jaime is on the right track IMO.

Probably 65% of my place won't see any action til this fall. I've never done that before. And it's eating me up. Lol. Could have made LOTS of hay... probably still could.

This is what I started them on yesterday. They get a new slice 2 or 4 times a day. No back fence. New strips twice a week usually. I get a lot of pleasure from it though. And love the looks I get from my neighbors.

 

[ClinchValley86]

What exactly is "his way"/ total managed grazing?

It's getting the cows eat majority of forage. Mob grazing pretty much. And grazing well rested ground. He promotes season long stockpiles and I honestly think he's fixing soil faster than the others.

What sets his stuff apart, to me, is the standing hay deal. I'm not articulate enough to really tell ya much, other than I am liking it.

Pretty good bit of info on YT and FB.

If you're turned off by someone's program or the name Total Grazing, there's a FB group that is focused on similar type of grazing. "Non-selective/Ultra High Density Grazing" is the name of the group. Some knowledgeable grazers on there from around the world and they're trying to keep it on-topic/ focused.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

CV thank you for sharing. Always interesting.

I've read some studies that are critical of rotational grazing ability to sequester carbon. None of that lines up with no the fabulous soil in our prairies. Clearly stuff organic matte was deposited in soils. What nitrogen fixing plants grow in native short and tall grass prairie? I'm wondering if there are other ways plants can get nitrogen.

If you look on Christine's website she has a paper titled nitrogen the double edged sword which speaks about commercial N and P applications. She states that excess nitrogen interferes w biochemical signaling between plant and microbes which in turn reduces carbon moved from plant to soil. I think this may be similar to the OPs question. Now how any of that works is beyond me.

The diversity of plant species in true native prairies, which really no longer exist, is mind boggleing. We have no way to study what went on here. What we do have to 'study' is very, very, very simplistic. I'm sure there are many native legumes to the prairie. I don't know all of them by a long shot, nor do I know (nor does anyone) the role they played in fixing nitrogen or other contributions. One whole family of legumes found on the prairie are the Desmodiums.

 

[ClinchValley86]

The diversity of plant species in true native prairies, which really no longer exist, is mind boggleing. We have no way to study what went on here. What we do have to 'study' is very, very, very simplistic. I'm sure there are many native legumes to the prairie. I don't know all of them by a long shot, nor do I know (nor does anyone) the role they played in fixing nitrogen or other contributions. One whole family of legumes found on the prairie are the Desmodiums.

I bet the OG prairies were a sight to see.

What do you have to say about chicory? I'm finding myself overran with it in spots. I assume it's doing some good work so try to leave it be. Animals eat it. But it's hard on the 4 wheeler axles and truck bumpers. Been clipping behind cows in places.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

There are a couple different types of chicory. There is/are the forage type, which is planted for a forage and often used for goats and sheep as an anti-parasitic. It is high in protein. It is better/more palatable prior to bolting. Then there is the "wild" type. Not as palatable but still high in protein. Chicory has a deep taproot and can be somewhat effective in breaking up some compaction.

 

[dave_shelby]

It's getting the cows eat majority of forage. Mob grazing pretty much. And grazing well rested ground. He promotes season long stockpiles and I honestly think he's fixing soil faster than the others.

I've generally been following the model where cows eat 1/3 to 1/2 excepting spring flush. That's the theory but my observations have been that some areas are eaten to about all the way down to 2 inches and some areas unmolested or tip grazed. I don't think it's working, particularly on newer grasses. It also seems to make fescue dominate and get rank in summers. When I cycle back in 40, 50 days the same areas get hit and those grasses get set back. It's worst in droughts and we are in the third year of drought. I could tighten the paddocks up which is difficult because Id need more water lines or let them graze beyond three days in which case they regraze.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

@dave_shelby, I think I'm getting a pretty good picture of what you are saying. You've got part of the solution figured out (there is a 2nd solution as well, although it presents another problem itself, maybe). First I'll point this out, and it's a problem I have with the concept I'll explain. It sounds like you are using the model, "Take half - Leave half". The model works until you get someone who abuses it. Ask this question: "Take half and Leave half OF WHAT?" If it is cool season grass that is 10-12 inches tall, you are fine. If its cool season grass that is 4-6 inches tall, you're not fine if you take half of it. You need a minimum amount/specific quantity left after a grazing cycle, not "half" of something. As a rule, the model is fairly sound, but it's too 'fuzzy' for someone who is new to rotational grazing and doesn't know the reasons behind the guidelines. Target leaving 3-4 inches of grass height behind, not 'half'.

The cows are eating some grass to a 2 inch height while leaving other areas untouched? I'd guess you have 2 issues here. First, and you indicated this, the pasture is too large. 2nd, the cattle are staying in the pasture too long. Should be in a pasture no more than 7 days and then move to the next pasture.

You indicate your fescue is getting rank in the summers. I could have figured out why, but you told us here. You have to let forages rest/recover after grazing. But, some forages, tall fescue in particular, and especially KY-31, becomes rank and unpalatable if you rest it too long. Aim for 30 days (28 is close enough for government work (which represents me ), but to rest more than 40 (and I've had producers do this and ask me "what happened?" when they have done this) invites less than optimal results in cattle production, although the pasture is ecologically quite healthy when you do this.

Water line placement is critical and it's very important you get it right the first time. I'ts harder to redo a water system than it is to redo permanent fence, and no one wants to do that. Check with your local NRCS about adding both water and fencing infrastructure to your operation to increase the number of pastures you are grazing.

The 2nd solution I mentioned as a possibility is to actually get more livestock. It sounds like your livestock are in pastures too long and that there is too much rest between grazings of the same pasture.

 

[Ebenezer]

@dave_shelby, I think I'm getting a pretty good picture of what you are saying. You've got part of the solution figured out (there is a 2nd solution as well, although it presents another problem itself, maybe). First I'll point this out, and it's a problem I have with the concept I'll explain. It sounds like you are using the model, "Take half - Leave half". The model works until you get someone who abuses it. Ask this question: "Take half and Leave half OF WHAT?" If it is cool season grass that is 10-12 inches tall, you are fine. If its cool season grass that is 4-6 inches tall, you're not fine if you take half of it. You need a minimum amount/specific quantity left after a grazing cycle, not "half" of something. As a rule, the model is fairly sound, but it's too 'fuzzy' for someone who is new to rotational grazing and doesn't know the reasons behind the guidelines. Target leaving 3-4 inches of grass height behind, not 'half'.

The cows are eating some grass to a 2 inch height while leaving other areas untouched? I'd guess you have 2 issues here. First, and you indicated this, the pasture is too large. 2nd, the cattle are staying in the pasture too long. Should be in a pasture no more than 7 days and then move to the next pasture.

You indicate your fescue is getting rank in the summers. I could have figured out why, but you told us here. You have to let forages rest/recover after grazing. But, some forages, tall fescue in particular, and especially KY-31, becomes rank and unpalatable if you rest it too long. Aim for 30 days (28 is close enough for government work (which represents me ), but to rest more than 40 (and I've had producers do this and ask me "what happened?" when they have done this) invites less than optimal results in cattle production, although the pasture is ecologically quite healthy when you do this.

Water line placement is critical and it's very important you get it right the first time. I'ts harder to redo a water system than it is to redo permanent fence, and no one wants to do that. Check with your local NRCS about adding both water and fencing infrastructure to your operation to increase the number of pastures you are grazing.

The 2nd solution I mentioned as a possibility is to actually get more livestock. It sounds like your livestock are in pastures too long and that there is too much rest between grazings of the same pasture.

All of that does not do away with selective grazing when the cattle or livestock have preferred taste. With a fescue invasion in summer pastures, you have to hurt the fescue. About the only two sure fire ways are close mowing in the spring or a chemical frost.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

All of that does not do away with selective grazing when the cattle or livestock have preferred taste. With a fescue invasion in summer pastures, you have to hurt the fescue. About the only two sure fire ways are close mowing in the spring or a chemical frost.

Shrinking pasture size or increasing animal numbers will have an impact, but the condition (rankness) of the fescue at the time the cows enter the pasture has an effect as well. The measures make the playing field more even. I'd have to see the actual field to get a good idea of how effective they will be. The close mowing or chemical frost will completely reset the field, which may be what actually needs to be done at the outset. SC does not necessarily get the cold weather OH does to accomplish the reset naturally over the winter. If the fescue from the prior year is still healthy in the pasture, we need the mowing, or chemical frost. I would think the Shenandoah Valley would have a significant enough winter, but I may be wrong.

Summer pastures: don't rest the fescue too long.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Honey Locust fixes nitrogen and their seed pods are high in protein. But i sure wouldn't advise planting them.

Honey Locust is a legume. But no, It really isn't something I'd plant in a pasture. So is black locust, but different genuses.

 

[dave_shelby]

Cattle are on pastures no more than 3 days. So I need to tighten up. But water is the most limiting feature on any grazing plan.

Also when I'm throwing out longer rotation times keep in mind we are in our third year of drought. Nothing other than summer annuals are growing now. What I trigger on is most all grasses at least 6-8 inches with tips.

One other observation I think I have mentioned before. I've seen some cows moving around around nipping here and there. And others are lazier, they just park themselves and eat.

 

[who cares]

Couple types of fungal colonies that did majority of that work to my understanding. The microbes just do the recycling and eating... if I understand correctly.

I try to wrap my head around it. Think I'd do better with some in-person and be able to ask questions. I like to ask questions. Lol.



It is a sales pitch while at the same time giving some good information and alternative approach to grazing. Listen with an open mind. It's speaking to soil carbon. I'm kind of thinking he's onto something.

Thank you for the link to his videos. He gave a tiny bit of info and says " now you can see why total grazing .. " I had to at it because there wasn't much info. If he's had success, tons of followers having success, it speaks more to me than a very vague discussion on hind gut animal fossils total grazing to the dirt supposedly from 50,000 years ago (I'll duck as I say kind of like the a2 milk argument that all cows were a2 hundreds of years ago ..)
I definitely need to watch more than the ones I spend watching today, but the last one I watched he says during the Green growing season you must graze your prime grass for milk and optimum growth and that you drop paddocks that are mature and stockpile those for hay, going back to your prime growth to get top lbs production. And he posts pictures of incredibly prime pastures that he says are even a bit over mature that he would be dropping.
Whereas I'm seeing the total Graze guys just letting everything get old and mature all the time and saying that doesn't matter. The one video, the guy from down south instead of going to his optimum pastures went back to last year's growth to clean it up instead of grazing prime pastures.
Ian innes said the same thing - don't waste prime forage trying to " cover the ranch", either drop or mow and go back to your vegetative pastures while they are growing.
I still haven't watched enough to understand why they don't believe in any soil armor except that they say everything under ground continues more to og. So I'm assuming root die off from tg is contributing to this but I see thin stands here on tg in drought when I leave till completely regrown and thicker where I trampled.
I always have opportunity to see both here as some moves were too small and cows get right to the ground.
I also find it interesting he says tg is done to moving 3-4 x per day - heights on mine vary from 4-7 inches when I'm done. I don't take 1/3 and leave because my cows haven't read the guide book. . . And legumes tromple so fast that's there's no leave 2/3. Honestly there is no way to do hd grazing of 500,000 lbs and leave 2/3. I think I just trample instead of total graze most of time..... The regrowth is amazing

 

[ClinchValley86]

Thank you for the link to his videos. He gave a tiny bit of info and says " now you can see why total grazing .. " I had to at it because there wasn't much info. If he's had success, tons of followers having success, it speaks more to me than a very vague discussion on hind gut animal fossils total grazing to the dirt supposedly from 50,000 years ago (I'll duck as I say kind of like the a2 milk argument that all cows were a2 hundreds of years ago ..)
I definitely need to watch more than the ones I spend watching today, but the last one I watched he says during the Green growing season you must graze your prime grass for milk and optimum growth and that you drop paddocks that are mature and stockpile those for hay, going back to your prime growth to get top lbs production. And he posts pictures of incredibly prime pastures that he says are even a bit over mature that he would be dropping.
Whereas I'm seeing the total Graze guys just letting everything get old and mature all the time and saying that doesn't matter. The one video, the guy from down south instead of going to his optimum pastures went back to last year's growth to clean it up instead of grazing prime pastures.
Ian innes said the same thing - don't waste prime forage trying to " cover the ranch", either drop or mow and go back to your vegetative pastures while they are growing.
I still haven't watched enough to understand why they don't believe in any soil armor except that they say everything under ground continues more to og. So I'm assuming root die off from tg is contributing to this but I see thin stands here on tg in drought when I leave till completely regrown and thicker where I trampled.
I always have opportunity to see both here as some moves were too small and cows get right to the ground.
I also find it interesting he says tg is done to moving 3-4 x per day - heights on mine vary from 4-7 inches when I'm done. I don't take 1/3 and leave because my cows haven't read the guide book. . . And legumes tromple so fast that's there's no leave 2/3. Honestly there is no way to do hd grazing of 500,000 lbs and leave 2/3. I think I just trample instead of total graze most of time..... The regrowth is amazing

As far as being concerned about naked ground, it is very short lived. A week maybe. Then it's gangbusters growth, and super tender.

I am one of those that seems to always be grazing mature stuff. But... there is always a bunch of green in the bottom.

Personally, I don't do one thing all the time. Right now, my heavy breds and yearlings need good nutrition, so I'm letting them be more selective and backed off the grazing pressure a bit. They're currently laying down a lot of material that's loaded with clover seed. I figure they're wasting around a quarter or a third right now, eating the rest.

Gotta be flexible no matter what or something will likely suffer.

There are enough "total graze" practitioners popping up on YT that most of the information can be gotten without spending money.

Do you do a pretty decent job of grazing everything before it goes mature?

I think next year I'll start baling some hay off this place again. Has been 5 or 6 years.

Hope you're getting plenty of precipitation. We are green, but dry.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Here's a pic of what I'm grazing currently. And a pic showing condition on heavy bred heifers.

Lastly, a pic of what they're leaving behind. I could push em harder but the yearlings would suffer.

 

[who cares]

I hesitated to keep going as I felt like I was going off topic to original post. But I have been thinking about it all, watching results, analyzing, did total grazing as best I could on 4 acres ( my cows still tromp a lot instead of eating and while i do move them as many as four to six times a day, if I push them too hard with small area, im I'm losing gains on my steers that will be butchered for prime beef in October/ November and I can't lose quality as i have a very good reputation for excellent beef ). I just skimmed the top on 3 acres - or I should say my dairy cows skimmed the top because they are fussy, and then I did what I always do on four acres. This is all in the same long strip so I can watch the results side to side as it grows.
Somebody asked how to my pastures look when I move the cows so they can see how selectively they are grazing in what I call high density mob grazing.
Here's some pictures. First is last night's Paddock. Next is fresh move ( I was moving up back fence which I do once a day) 3rd picture is when my kids give too large an area at 2 pm last picture is looking straight down at what cows were on this am

 

[Ebenezer]

My opinion: you need to seed annuals ASAP and get some N on the pastures to improve the quality big time if you plan to finish cattle on it or just go with high quality hay.

 

[who cares]

And then pictures of what it looks like ahead of the cows right before they go on a new section - this pasture was grazed May 8 and they were off it May 21 ( with 4-6 x day moves), and then had two months of dry dry weather again.
It was full bloom alfalfa 2 weeks ago, and I should have made hay but refused to do hay this year.
We moved them back on July 26 so it had 2 months recovery. Because of drought we had no water running in coulee and the well guy didn't come fix our pump for 2 months ( only source of water there), so I couldn't rotate to the pasture when I needed to.
First picture is right ahead of cows where they'll go tomorrow, second is looking straight down at the pasture. 3rd picture is a shot straight down showing regrowth from where cows were 7 days ago. Last picture is same as #3 but just looking across Paddock.