Clover and Chemical N Conundrum

[who cares]

Just to clarify for Ebenezer. The first batch of pictures is the pasture right after one of our moves - it is not before cows go on . It is showing what they've eaten/trampled when I'm ready to move them.
I do NOT need more N on anything - I have so much alfalfa it isn't funny .
The best way for me to destroy this pasture would be to seed annuals.

 

[Ebenezer]

Just to clarify for Ebenezer. The first batch of pictures is the pasture right after one of our moves - it is not before cows go on . It is showing what they've eaten/trampled when I'm ready to move them.
I do NOT need more N on anything - I have so much alfalfa it isn't funny .
The best way for me to destroy this pasture would be to seed annuals.

"... if I push them too hard with small area, im I'm losing gains on my steers that will be butchered for prime beef in October/ November and I can't lose quality as i have a very good reputation for excellent beef )."

Seems that you need something better or else you would not have this problem to discuss. Or you are merely discussing to be discussing. Whatever.

 

[who cares]

We're you following our discussion on total grazing? I don't do tg and was trying to understand it - somebody asked what do my pastures look like after cows are moved - height, trample etc. so I posted pictures of what it looks like when they go on, and what it looks like after.
I do high density mob grazing, move 4-6 x day and was mentioning when I tried to push for them to eat more and trample less they don't gain as much, so unless I separate so unless I separate my feeders from the cattle herd, i sacrifice gains. I'm not sure how to get them to trample less and the tg guys say faster moves with less area. I'm saying I do fast moves (4-6 a day) but any smaller area they don't gain as well. So I'm wondering if the tighter areas are for cows or cow calf.
Yes, I could cull for the cows that do better on smaller areas and eat the grass they trample and foul...
I can keep 1 cow unit per acre on my land and graze from mid December to end April. Are you saying you are getting better than 1,000 lb cow per acre or 1:1 with annuals on tg? I've never gotten the impression that tg guys utilize annuals.
I'm trying to eliminate machinery, inputs etc on my land so annuals would have to have a pretty tremendous draw especially considering the drought we are in the last 4 years.
I do moves with 250-500,000 lbs per acre. I'm curious about total grazing because I always want to improve and do better and am open to things even though the concept is hard to wrap my mind around

 

[ClinchValley86]

We're you following our discussion on total grazing? I don't do tg and was trying to understand it - somebody asked what do my pastures look like after cows are moved - height, trample etc. so I posted pictures of what it looks like when they go on, and what it looks like after.
I do high density mob grazing, move 4-6 x day and was mentioning when I tried to push for them to eat more and trample less they don't gain as much, so unless I separate so unless I separate my feeders from the cattle herd, i sacrifice gains. I'm not sure how to get them to trample less and the tg guys say faster moves with less area. I'm saying I do fast moves (4-6 a day) but any smaller area they don't gain as well. So I'm wondering if the tighter areas are for cows or cow calf.
Yes, I could cull for the cows that do better on smaller areas and eat the grass they trample and foul...
I can keep 1 cow unit per acre on my land and graze from mid December to end April. Are you saying you are getting better than 1,000 lb cow per acre or 1:1 with annuals on tg? I've never gotten the impression that tg guys utilize annuals.
I'm trying to eliminate machinery, inputs etc on my land so annuals would have to have a pretty tremendous draw especially considering the drought we are in the last 4 years.
I do moves with 250-500,000 lbs per acre. I'm curious about total grazing because I always want to improve and do better and am open to things even though the concept is hard to wrap my mind around

To my understanding, work TG... during the growing season you're grazing stuff in stage 2 during the growing season. Or just barely into stage 3. This I have trouble with. Every Damm thing I graze is over mature. Sometimes to the point there's no green in it. Which isn't following the TG model.

There's a good post on the FB group by Josh Teague. It's lengthy put paints a clear picture of how it's "suppose" to be.

I do have trouble with my steers. Heifers do great, but steers not so much. I have boiled it doen to a hormone problem.

It was suggested to me to wait til they are 10 to 12 months prior to castration to benefit from the testosterone related gains of bulls. It 100% makes sense to me after seeing this last batch of steers. 90% of which were hairy as hell and were definitely not thriving the same as their sisters.

Next year I'm leaving bulls intact longer. I've been banging at 6 months.

My steers were far enough behind the girls that I wormed them. Which I do not do. I also pulled them up front and gave a bigger field to allow some selective grazing. They're starting to shape up.

There's always a give/take I'm learning.

I couldn't link to his post. Bit here are screen shots of the juicy bits you might find interesting.

I like the idea of grazing mature stuff on account of the particular type of root exudates given off when a mature plant is grazed. It's completely different than the sweet/sugary exudates given off when the plant is vegetative. That's a rabbit hole in itself I reckon.

All this is something most folks just aren't going to be interested in trying. Be it time constraints or whatever.

How do your cows and heifers look @who cares

 

[ClinchValley86]

Clover seed sprouting while still on the plant it has been so wet here. Not touching the ground

The mature clover... they're eating a good bit of the tops, but trampling the rest. Clover seems to prime to ground for a flush of green if we wait on it to fall over and create a blanket.


I was disappointed at first. And it was dry. But kinda starting to see a rhyme and reason for some of these "outside the box" ideas.

 

[who cares]

What I don't understand is that they say residue left either standing or trampled blocks out all young growth.
You know what becomes a dense mat and blocks all young growth? Forage left ungrazed for six months to a year. There is a way denser mat of forage by leaving half my farm ungrazed until winter. Way more than any standing or tromped forage from 3-5x year passes.
I'm surrounded by tons of crp. Until the drought it only got hayed once every 3 years. That stuff has a mat so dense it's almost impossible to dig through to reach the soil.
Every August I'm chasing forage here so I either need to make hay to keep it all " vegetative" or I'm grazing it a month later than prime. But I'm seeing cows are doing fine so if rather graze it a bit over than make hay. Because if I was still go out and cut my land right now you can bet we'd have four more weeks of no rain.
You're problem is a good one if you're chasing brown forage - you need way more cows

 

[dave_shelby]

What I don't understand is that they say residue left either standing or trampled blocks out all young growth.
You know what becomes a dense mat and blocks all young growth? Forage left ungrazed for six months to a year. There is a way denser mat of forage by leaving half my farm ungrazed until winter. Way more than any standing or tromped forage from 3-5x year passes.
I'm surrounded by tons of crp. Until the drought it only got hayed once every 3 years. That stuff has a mat so dense it's almost impossible to dig through to reach the soil.
Every August I'm chasing forage here so I either need to make hay to keep it all " vegetative" or I'm grazing it a month later than prime. But I'm seeing cows are doing fine so if rather graze it a bit over than make hay. Because if I was still go out and cut my land right now you can bet we'd have four more weeks of no rain.
You're problem is a good one if you're chasing brown forage - you need way more cows

is that any more risk in a fire situation?

 

[ClinchValley86]

What I don't understand is that they say residue left either standing or trampled blocks out all young growth.
You know what becomes a dense mat and blocks all young growth? Forage left ungrazed for six months to a year. There is a way denser mat of forage by leaving half my farm ungrazed until winter. Way more than any standing or tromped forage from 3-5x year passes.
I'm surrounded by tons of crp. Until the drought it only got hayed once every 3 years. That stuff has a mat so dense it's almost impossible to dig through to reach the soil.
Every August I'm chasing forage here so I either need to make hay to keep it all " vegetative" or I'm grazing it a month later than prime. But I'm seeing cows are doing fine so if rather graze it a bit over than make hay. Because if I was still go out and cut my land right now you can bet we'd have four more weeks of no rain.
You're problem is a good one if you're chasing brown forage - you need way more cows

I am refraining from having an opinion on the full season stockpile deal til after I graze it this winter.

Your point has merit. I wish I had cut hay every time I ride thru it. Lol. Expensive gamble I say.

I definitely need more cows I think. Hope to sell a lot of hay this winter (for me).

 

[kenny thomas]

To my understanding, work TG... during the growing season you're grazing stuff in stage 2 during the growing season. Or just barely into stage 3. This I have trouble with. Every Damm thing I graze is over mature. Sometimes to the point there's no green in it. Which isn't following the TG model.

There's a good post on the FB group by Josh Teague. It's lengthy put paints a clear picture of how it's "suppose" to be.

I do have trouble with my steers. Heifers do great, but steers not so much. I have boiled it doen to a hormone problem.

It was suggested to me to wait til they are 10 to 12 months prior to castration to benefit from the testosterone related gains of bulls. It 100% makes sense to me after seeing this last batch of steers. 90% of which were hairy as hell and were definitely not thriving the same as their sisters.

Next year I'm leaving bulls intact longer. I've been banging at 6 months.

My steers were far enough behind the girls that I wormed them. Which I do not do. I also pulled them up front and gave a bigger field to allow some selective grazing. They're starting to shape up.

There's always a give/take I'm learning.

I couldn't link to his post. Bit here are screen shots of the juicy bits you might find interesting.

I like the idea of grazing mature stuff on account of the particular type of root exudates given off when a mature plant is grazed. It's completely different than the sweet/sugary exudates given off when the plant is vegetative. That's a rabbit hole in itself I reckon.

All this is something most folks just aren't going to be interested in trying. Be it time constraints or whatever.

How do your cows and heifers look @who cares

Band your calves at birth instead and try that first. If you wait any longer your gonna take a big hit on price. A calf looking bullish through the stockyard is discounted a lot. .50 or more.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Band your calves at birth instead and try that first. If you wait any longer your gonna take a big hit on price. A calf looking bullish through the stockyard is discounted a lot. .50 or more

I'd just sell bulls I guess at 500 if I was gonna be selling then. Get em out of here and off the cow.

Experiment time. Band half and leave half intact. That would show me somrthing.

I need another batch to finish on grass maybe. It'd work to let em grow as bulls a while in that scenario. Trying to be flexible and see what grows them the fastest. Don't wanna have to do 36 to 40 months again.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Here what thr clover mess and mat has turned into. Was last on this mid May or so.

 

[kenny thomas]

Here what thr clover mess and mat has turned into. Was last on this mid May or so.

Im curious to see what the grass does this fall and even next year. I have several acres that hasn't had cows on it since early April. I bush hogged it high around the first of July. Because of surgery i haven't been back to look at it. Will turn in on it labor day weekend. Same day i will spread Urea on my stockpile fescue.

 

[anewcomer]

Your grass fed finishing cattle MUST be grazed ahead of your herd, regardless of how frequently you move. They MUST have maximum selectivity over the base herd! Quit reading the internet and start looking at what is going on in your own pastures in your own environment!!!

 

[ClinchValley86]

Your grass fed finishing cattle MUST be grazed ahead of your herd, regardless of how frequently you move. They MUST have maximum selectivity over the base herd! Quit reading the internet and start looking at what is going on in your own pastures in your own environment!!!

That's the conclusion I've made. Gotta be ran seperate or maybe implanted.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not. But I'll read and observe and trial. Best of all that way.

I think the real secret to grass finished profitability is going to be grazing healthy cull 2 to 5 year olds from March til October and killing. Won't be able to guarantee much other than how they were fed the last 6 or 8 months. But that'll be just fine for me.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Im curious to see what the grass does this fall and even next year. I have several acres that hasn't had cows on it since early April. I bush hogged it high around the first of July. Because of surgery i haven't been back to look at it. Will turn in on it labor day weekend. Same day i will spread Urea on my stockpile fescue.

I am too, Kenny. I think it's gonna be fantastic. Lol. Gotta be optimistic!

Should be different than the last 8 or so... that I have no doubt.

Really would like to have done a Haney type soil test this spring to compare to next spring. Organic nitrogen and organic matter are what I'm most curious about.

Need to find a compaction meter. That ought to tell a story too.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Your grass fed finishing cattle MUST be grazed ahead of your herd, regardless of how frequently you move. They MUST have maximum selectivity over the base herd! Quit reading the internet and start looking at what is going on in your own pastures in your own environment!!!

There are few absolutes when it comes to pasture management. This is not one of them. Especially if you do not grass finish beef or even finish animals at all, or if you ONLY purchase and raise stockers and do not have a base herd that can follow. This leader-follower rotation scenario can be and is used, and it can be used successfully where applied. It can and will turn into a train wreck if applied incorrectly as well.

 

[Ebenezer]

There are few absolutes when it comes to pasture management. This is not one of them. Especially if you do not grass finish beef or even finish animals at all, or if you ONLY purchase and raise stockers and do not have a base herd that can follow. This leader-follower rotation scenario can be and is used, and it can be used successfully where applied. It can and will turn into a train wreck if applied incorrectly as well.

Explain. Thanks.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Explain. Thanks.

Hi @Ebenezer. The last thing I want to do is be vague, and honestly am not sure what I need to expand on, so I apologize and let me know, but I'll try to expand/explain some here. I don't meant to be over-simplifying anything I say here that you already know, but I honestly am not sure what I need to expand upon. It will be good for me to learn what I need to.

Starting with the "grass finishing", that refers to the animals/cattle that are bound for market and the animal's (stocker) last few meals before it goes to market and becomes hamburger. The "stockers" are animals destined for market between roughly 6 months, roughly 450 lbs, of age and a year to two years old. Some cattle producers specialize in these animals and buy the stockers from producers who run strictly a cow/calf operation. Either one of these 2 operations (1. "stocker" or 2. "cow/calf") won't have cattle types of the other operation and therefore can't run a leader-follower operation where the stocker animals graze first in a rotational operation (I would suspect 3 or less days) immediately followed by the cows or cow/calf pairs for 3 days, after which the pasture is allowed to rest/regrow (28 days based on the '4 Never Fail Rules of Grazing'). The leader - follower operation is a specialized adaptation of rotational grazing that requires increased management. The intent of it is to provide the market animals destined for sale the choicest forage so that they increase growth (which equals weight, marbleing and profit) faster/more than if the stocker animals and cows or cow/calf pairs are run together as a single herd. I have worked with producers that have implemented either system that have been successful.

The incorrectly applied "train wrecks" that I've seen include instances where ap producer will attempt to graze the stockers for too long for the combined operation resulting in a total grazing period that is too long resulting in repeated grazing of individual plants before the plant is given rest. The idea is to graze the plant down and then give it a rest period before it is grazed again. Another "wreck" I've seen is where the stockers are allowed to graze too much which leaves too little for the cows, cow/calf pairs. I'll make an assumption (it's fair) that you are grazing the same number of stockers as cows or cow/calf pairs. Both groups/herds have to be on the pasture parcel an equal amount of time in order for the leader - follower system to work. The stockers are only a third to two-thirds the size of the cow or cow/calf pairs. As such, they eat considerably less volume in an equal time period as the cow or cow/calf pairs. You have to take this into account in the rotation. If the stockers are allowed to eat too much of the pasture (very easy to do) the cow or cow/calf pairs that are following will either net be getting enough forage themselves or eating the pasture to a height that is too short, and quite possibly/probably both.

The leader-follower approach, mixed herd approach, single herd type, all are functional and work. Which one that is acceptable to the producer is up to them. I do apologize if I over-simplified anything here, and let me know if I need to explain something that I missed or made an erroneous assumption about.

 

[who cares]

We have some dairy cows that can't be pushed like beef ones, so we run them on pasture 3+4 weeks before the beef herd. They pick top 1/4 to third and large enough area there rarely trample. They are still moved 2x day to reduce trampling and in 3 weeks it's taller than it was when they went on it and anything they didn't like or find palatable is older but gets eaten and trampled by beef herd as they go through it.
It works really well, and less damage than you'd think. If I push milkers you immediately see it in the buckets and rumen fill. I could cull for hardier milk cows, but I'd rather be productive as it pays to just manage slightly better forage and get an extra 10-20 lbs milk per cow.
My problem is I like well conditioned cows. I want big barrels, full rumens with no ribs, happy lines and fat jiggling on their dams pins when calves are 6 months old. It means I have more flexibility in nasty winter weather if i have poor forage - i know they can lose weight in jan/feb and be safe and gain it rapidly in spring. So I prefer to manage it at higher quality .

 

[Mark Reynolds]

We have some dairy cows that can't be pushed like beef ones, so we run them on pasture 3+4 weeks before the beef herd. They pick top 1/4 to third and large enough area there rarely trample. They are still moved 2x day to reduce trampling and in 3 weeks it's taller than it was when they went on it and anything they didn't like or find palatable is older but gets eaten and trampled by beef herd as they go through it.
It works really well, and less damage than you'd think. If I push milkers you immediately see it in the buckets and rumen fill. I could cull for hardier milk cows, but I'd rather be productive as it pays to just manage slightly better forage and get an extra 10-20 lbs milk per cow.
My problem is I like well conditioned cows. I want big barrels, full rumens with no ribs, happy lines and fat jiggling on their dams pins when calves are 6 months old. It means I have more flexibility in nasty winter weather if i have poor forage - i know they can lose weight in jan/feb and be safe and gain it rapidly in spring. So I prefer to manage it at higher quality .

I know and understand rotational grazing well, but I honestly don't know enough about the Dakotas to say that I could comfortably apply rotational grazing there. Give me a week to get a baseline feel and I'd be golden. Until then..... What grasses are you grazing and what is your precipitation regime (by month) like?