Clover and Chemical N Conundrum

[who cares]

I'm grazing pastures that have alfalfa, clover, meadow brome, meadow fescue, sainfoin, orchard grass, rye grass, tall fescue, birdsfoot trefoil, Canary grass, and then some weeds.
I've got some with final answer alfalfa and forage tall fescue and late maturing orchard grass that's excellent for grazing them also.
We have been in drought for 3 years, but before then our annual rain was 17 inches. Tended to get 1.5-2 inches April, may and June, dry July, then 4 inch in a couple days August. Sometimes our falls get no moisture, sometimes 5 inches.
We've lived here in this part of nd for 7 years and had no years similar. It was continuous farmed. and soy 78 and we've been working on improving soil since 2017. We don't apply any fertilizer, just rotational grazing and in we unroll until snow gets too deep and we bale graze

 

[Shank3r]

I've read thru this thread a few times now while trying to figure out if no tilling clover into pastures for nitrification would be beneficial. I initially had thought it may be, but our property is in an area that gets 24-28" of rain annually on average with 100* temps Jun thru Sep months and my brother-in-law told me a few years back when he planted rye grass one winter that it robbed too much available moisture from the common bermuda and hurt the common bermuda that was in the pasture. It lacked the soil moisture going into summer due to the rye grass consuming it over the winter/spring and ended up worse off than doing nothing.

So for us, weed & brush control stays at the top priority and chemical fertilized applied when budget and weather conditions line up.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I've read thru this thread a few times now while trying to figure out if no tilling clover into pastures for nitrification would be beneficial. I initially had thought it may be, but our property is in an area that gets 24-28" of rain annually on average with 100* temps Jun thru Sep months and my brother-in-law told me a few years back when he planted rye grass one winter that it robbed too much available moisture from the common bermuda and hurt the common bermuda that was in the pasture. It lacked the soil moisture going into summer due to the rye grass consuming it over the winter/spring and ended up worse off than doing nothing.

So for us, weed & brush control stays at the top priority and chemical fertilized applied when budget and weather conditions line up.

It depends. First, what is growing in your pastures? Then, what does a soil test indicate?

 

[Shank3r]

It depends. First, what is growing in your pastures? Then, what does a soil test indicate?

mostly common bermuda & goat weed (we call it dove weed). Soil test indicate slightly elevated pH, and nutrients looked good except for N, it was almost non-existent.
soil is incredibly compacted
Next spring it's in the plans to spray most of the pastures with a weed control herbicide. undecided on which one to use as of yet.

 

[BC]

mostly common bermuda & goat weed (we call it dove weed). Soil test indicate slightly elevated pH, and nutrients looked good except for N, it was almost non-existent.
soil is incredibly compacted
Next spring it's in the plans to spray most of the pastures with a weed control herbicide. undecided on which one to use as of yet.

If you have clover or want to plant clover next year, you are going to be limited to 2,4-D or Weedmaster (2,4-D + Banvel). Neither has any residual. If you have clover, wait until it has gone to seed and the seed are dry enough to shatter out when rubbed in the palm of your hand.

 

[Warren Allison]

mostly common bermuda & goat weed (we call it dove weed). Soil test indicate slightly elevated pH, and nutrients looked good except for N, it was almost non-existent.
soil is incredibly compacted
Next spring it's in the plans to spray most of the pastures with a weed control herbicide. undecided on which one to use as of yet.

Fertilize and apply lime according to what the soil test said. Use 24d in early spring. You can mix it with liquid Nitrogen, or liquid Caltrate , and kill 2 birds with one stone. That liquid calcium is cheaper and works faster than dry lime to raise PH.

 

[kenny thomas]

Fertilize and apply lime according to what the soil test said. Use 24d in early spring. You can mix it with liquid Nitrogen, or liquid Caltrate , and kill 2 birds with one stone. That liquid calcium is cheaper and works faster than dry lime to raise PH.

Notice the PH is already elevated.

 

[Warren Allison]

Notice the PH is already elevated.

I saw that. I meant in general, liquid Calcium is cheaper than traditional dry lime, plus you can mix your 24D with it. @Shank3r , how much Nitrogen per acres does the soil test call for?

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Notice the PH is already elevated.

I saw this and was going to comment, so now I will. Can a numerical value please be provided?

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I appreciate Kathy Voth's "On Pasture" (Ok, maybe I'm biased. I started with the BLM, I'm also an author for On Pasture.) I found the following on your 'Dove Weed'.



As for the compaction, you should try a forage radish and/or a deep rooted forb of a type that has some ability to penetrate this compaction. If the soil is that compacted, the Bermuda will remain stunted as the roots can't grow, so the tops won't grow, regardless of the fertilization. Not that you want to, but does the soil need ripped? (plowed in short, not disced)

 

[ClinchValley86]

The sabbatical "of sorts" I've given the back half of the farm has sure loosened the soil up. I'm looking forward to seeing next year's stand. Not that it's practical, but sure seems to be effective this far.

 

[Nick Wagner]

Clover will send roots deep given a chance, no need for a plow. Despite the advice of many university educated folks that I didn't need lime, I discovered this farm was calcium deficient. Was even told I would ruin the farm by applying excess calcium. Today, some twenty years later, the driveway grows more forage than the farm used to.

 

[Shank3r]

eant in general, liquid Calcium is cheaper than traditional dry lime, plus you can mix your 24D with it. @Shank3r , how much Nitrogen per acres does the soil test call

50lb/acre was the suggestion from the Texas A&M / Agri-Life extension office that performed the test. I applied 60lb/acre of a granular lawn fertilizer that was a 19-5-9 if i remember correctly to an experimental 1acre grass plot I'm playing with and the common bermuda responded exceptionally well. (I'm trying to see if switchgrass will grow here)

I appreciate Kathy Voth's "On Pasture" (Ok, maybe I'm biased. I started with the BLM, I'm also an author for On Pasture.) I found the following on your 'Dove Weed'.


As for the compaction, you should try a forage radish and/or a deep rooted forb of a type that has some ability to penetrate this compaction. If the soil is that compacted, the Bermuda will remain stunted as the roots can't grow, so the tops won't grow, regardless of the fertilization. Not that you want to, but does the soil need ripped? (plowed in short, not disced)

I'm currently setting up an old John Deere 23B SubSoiler / Shank Ripper to put in the ground as soon as the soil is dry enough to feel like I can really fracture it. I'll probably start off doing a total of 50 acres spread across multiple areas to see how the grass responds. If it responds well we may look at purchasing something like a Hay King Pasture renovator.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Clover will send roots deep given a chance, no need for a plow. Despite the advice of many university educated folks that I didn't need lime, I discovered this farm was calcium deficient. Was even told I would ruin the farm by applying excess calcium. Today, some twenty years later, the driveway grows more forage than the farm used to.

Hey Nick, are you in Ohio? I would guess that is affirmative, unless you are just a bit further east.

 

[simme]

50lb/acre was the suggestion from the Texas A&M / Agri-Life extension office that performed the test. I applied 60lb/acre of a granular lawn fertilizer that was a 19-5-9 if i remember correctly to an experimental 1acre grass plot I'm playing with and the common bermuda responded exceptionally well. (I'm trying to see if switchgrass will grow here)

60# of a 19-5-9 lawn fertilizer is only 11.4# of nitrogen. 19 is the % nitrogen. 60 x 0.19 = 11.4. If the desired amount of nitrogen is 50#/acre and you are using 19-5-9, then you need to apply 316# of the granular fertilizer per acre. That will apply 60# of N (nitrogen), 16# of P (phosphorus) and 28# of K (potash)

 

[Nick Wagner]

Hey Nick, are you in Ohio? I would guess that is affirmative, unless you are just a bit further east.

Sure am Mark, eastern Seneca County. Halfway between Toledo and Cleveland, some 25 miles south of the lake. Where, and I quote, the soils do not respond to standard Tri-state recommendations. It's glacial till, hardly unique.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Sure am Mark, eastern Seneca County. Halfway between Toledo and Cleveland, some 25 miles south of the lake. Where, and I quote, the soils do not respond to standard Tri-state recommendations. It's glacial till, hardly unique.

I would gather that you have very little, if any, problem with compaction. I would also guess that your pH needs boosted on somewhat of a schedule as I would think the calcium and lime would leach out of it at a fairly predictable rate. Although, raising your organic matter will slow that process. You are east of the Great Black Swamp. I'd have to look at the Web Soil Survey to see what your soils 'should' be, but I suspect OM is lower there than on the west side of the county.

 

[Nick Wagner]

I would gather that you have very little, if any, problem with compaction. I would also guess that your pH needs boosted on somewhat of a schedule as I would think the calcium and lime would leach out of it at a fairly predictable rate. Although, raising your organic matter will slow that process. You are east of the Great Black Swamp. I'd have to look at the Web Soil Survey to see what your soils 'should' be, but I suspect OM is lower there than on the west side of the county.

You are pretty close. Knee deep combine ruts when I moved here. Organic matter was close to zero, not a single field tested at 1%. Highly eroded. Ph was high 7s, had herbicide carryover problems. Soil was tight and hard, yellow clay. Clay knobs would grow beans an inch or so high, spindly barren stalks of corn. Adding Huron Lime, a high calcium product for those of you out of the area, and copious amounts of manure, before giving up and fencing the whole farm. Organic matter is now 4% on the knobs, have real honest to god topsoil.

I finally figured out the worst spots on the farm also had the highest magnesium. Was a long and winding road making this farm productive. Would still be buying fertilizer if I had been making money following the university trained fertilizer salesmen's advice. And I buried a calf once in a clover field, still finding clover roots at four foot depth. You seem pretty knowledgeable Mark, thanks.

 

[1982vett]

I've read thru this thread a few times now while trying to figure out if no tilling clover into pastures for nitrification would be beneficial. I initially had thought it may be, but our property is in an area that gets 24-28" of rain annually on average with 100* temps Jun thru Sep months and my brother-in-law told me a few years back when he planted rye grass one winter that it robbed too much available moisture from the common bermuda and hurt the common bermuda that was in the pasture. It lacked the soil moisture going into summer due to the rye grass consuming it over the winter/spring and ended up worse off than doing nothing.

So for us, weed & brush control stays at the top priority and chemical fertilized applied when budget and weather conditions line up.

Kleberg County is south of Corpus Christi on U.S. Highway 77 in the Rio Grande Plain region of South Texas. The county's center is at approximately 27°50' north latitude and 98°00' west longitude. Situated on a grassy plain with elevations ranging from sea level to 150 feet, part of the county's 853 square miles lies on the mainland, while the remainder is on Padre Island. A number of creeks, including San Fernando, Santa Gertrudis, Escondido, and Los Olmos, flow into the Callo del Grullo and Baffin Bay in the southeastern section. The county's clay and loam soils are covered in places with such brush as huisache, mesquite, and ebony. Temperatures range from an average January minimum of 48° to an average July maximum of 96°, and the average annual rainfall is 26.5 inches. The growing season is ordinarily 314 days.

Hard comparison. I'm 250 miles north of you. My guess is your growing season for ryegrass and clover is probably shorter than here. Hotter sooner and longer. Later germination due to heat and lack of moisture. But ryegrass and clover is my go to "bag less supplement" for winter forage. One may think it doesn't provide much winter grazing, but watch how it is grazed. My cattle chase after every bit of greenery they can find be it native winter grasses, clover or what ever. It's a balancing act for sure, but not having to provide additional nutrition (which could include hay) besides what you can grow in your pasture...what is that worth? It's a lot. Saving mount quickly. Labor and time, machinery wear and tear, longer grazing season opposed to feeding hay, cubes, or whatever your present program requires.

A TRIP DOWN MEMORY LANE....

A pasture in April 2004. This during a time I was making an effort to maximize productivity and get all I could out of the land. Running a cow to 3 acres.


December 2009... Oats just getting started, should have already been grazing a month and a half. Still running a cow to 3 acres. Taking a lot of hay now.

A native grass pasture.

May 2010, Had been doing some pasture renovating and adding clover. Got a decent start on this batch.

May 2011, getting seriously dry. Forced to begin reducing herd size.

August 2011, feeding hay and have stopped selling hay. Down to half a herd now. By November I had sold 80% of the
herd.
December 24, 2011 we began to get some drought relief, by March 2012 pastures were looking good, began cutting hay and restocking some.
Going forward from this time, I changed my view on how I operated. I no longer pushed to maximize production from the acreage I ran. Winter of 2012 I didn't need to feed hay at all and planted only half the amount of winter pasture I normally planted. Didn't need it because stocking rate was about 1/3 of "normal". The most I ever restocked to was a cow to 4.8 acres. I stopped growing hay to sell cutting my fertilizer bill to near $0, but did fill up my barns. Took the 80 acres I normally planted to oats and helped Mother Nature turn it back into pasture. Instead of plowing the ground to prep for oats, I began pasture drilling and adding Bermuda or Klien or Little Bluestem in addition to clover to the small seed box. It took a while but now provides 80 more acres to Summer pasture. I still can cut excess for hay.

So, I would encourage the clover and I would manage the ryegrass. Graze it heavy in the spring if you think it hinders the bermuda, but use it during the colder months.

 

[Nick Wagner]

The sabbatical "of sorts" I've given the back half of the farm has sure loosened the soil up. I'm looking forward to seeing next year's stand. Not that it's practical, but sure seems to be effective this far.

Speaking of sabbaticals. I one time built a fence by hand across a field, clay was rock hard, worked my tail off. Until the last two holes near and in the fencerow. Those two holes almost dug themselves. What was the difference in only thirty feet, the soil is the same on both sides of the fence.