Char cross rat tail coats?

[Stocker Steve]

Lots of angus x char crosses in the country:
You see some with thin curly coats and they seem to really suffer in cold. Sometimes called "true rat tails" here.
You see some with short Angus type coats and they seem to take the weather OK.

Is there any genetic rule or typical percent that tells you how the F1 hair coat for this cross will turn out?
How much does this change with a 25% char F2?

 

[farmwriter]

Can't answer your question, but have a similar one.
We have a LHxAngus heifer that's going in the freezer (because she's a touch on the stupid side) with the steers, and a couple of months ago her switch disappeared but there's no obvious trauma to her tail.
When I pointed it out to my Daddy he said every one around here he'd ever seen do that was gray CharX. Now this girl is gray, but no Char to be found. Anybody else have any experience with cows with no switch? Just curious.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Losing there switch happens alot on fescue. Rat tails show up when you cross Char. and angus with a little braham or simmi in the mix.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Losing there switch happens alot on fescue. Rat tails show up when you cross Char. and angus with a little braham or simmi in the mix.

RBBreeder-
In your experience, would you suggest that the reason for the switch loss is because of the Endophyte's in Fescue, or have you seen it in Endofyte-Free fescue also?

DOC HARRIS

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Its endofyte Doc. I don't think you would see it in the endofyte free fescue. I still only have the Kentucky 31. Cows that are raised on kentucky 31 adjust to it. Helps to have a good mineral program.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I agree. The research that I have done (from the University of Missouri Extension) states that in addition to gain losses the cattle can experience reproductive problems, elevated body temperatures (which causes hair loss in humanss also) and loss of blood flow to the extremities (feet and "tails") in cattle. "Tall Fescue Toxicosis" can cause a multitude of problems with cattle. Some diligent exploration on the internet might help producers overcome some of the problems with Tall Fescue ("Kentucky 31"), such as planting "Endophyte-Free" varieties, and mixing their stands with various clovers, along with rotating the cattlle OFF summer fescue pastures. The "rotating" protocol is more easily said than done with most operations!

DOC HARRIS

 

[ColemanCreekCattle]

rat tailed cattle have shown a lower rate of gain --- sell all progeny

 

[Jake]

Rat tails are caused by a diluter gene carried in most poplular continentals including Charolais, Simmies, and Gelbvieh. (Recently brought to my attention some herefords carry a diluter also) The degree of the color and hair coat's "rattieness" is also impart to a matching gene in the black animal but this gene is not identified by the angus association.

 

[ColemanCreekCattle]

A form of congenital hypotrichosis, commonly know as the "rat-tail syndrome," occurs in a small percentage of calves produced by crossing some Continental cattle breeds with cattle that are black in color. These calves are characterized by short, curly, malformed, sometimes sparse hair and a lack of normal tail switch development. In our first study, performance of 43 rat-tail calves was compared with that of 570 non-rat-tail calves of the same breeding and contemporary groups. All rat-tail calves were sired by Simmental bulls and were from cows with various percentages of Angus breeding. The rat-tail condition had no effect on birth weight, weaning weight, or gain from birth to weaning. However, rat-tail calves had significantly lower rates of gain during the winter months from weaning to yearling than non-rat-tail calves, resulting in a 19 kg lighter yearling weight. Gains of steers from yearling to slaughter were not significantly different, but rat-tail steers were 36 kg lighter (P = .01) and 13 d older (P = .15) at slaughter than the non-rat-tail steers.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Only two things that are worth your time when dealing with toxic fescue Doc. Cattle that have been bred and raised on it and a good mineral program. Kentucky 31 would have to be completely killed out, very hard to do considering the seed bank it has in this area.

 

[VanC]

Lots of angus x char crosses in the country:
You see some with thin curly coats and they seem to really suffer in cold. Sometimes called "true rat tails" here.
You see some with short Angus type coats and they seem to take the weather OK.

Is there any genetic rule or typical percent that tells you how the F1 hair coat for this cross will turn out?

According to the research done up to this point, the only way a rat tail can occur is when mating an animal that carries a dilution gene with one that carries a black gene. Since the vast majority of such matings in the US are Char x Angus, I tried to find out what percentage of such matings have resulted in rat tails. No luck so far. Only know that it's rare. What the definition of "rare" is in this case is another story. The highest incidence of rat tails seems to occur when crossing a Simmental that carries the dilution gene with black. Since there aren't very many diluted Simmentals around in the US anymore, I don't imagine it's a huge problem.

How much does this change with a 25% char F2?

As I understand it, the breed percentages wouldn't make any difference. As long as one animal carries the dilution gene and the other carries the black gene there is the possibilty of getting a rat tail. In other words, a 25% Char that carries the dilution gene crossed with a 25% Angus that carries the black gene would have just as much chance of throwing a rat tail as crossing two purebreds. The genes involved wouldn't be any less potent in a crossbred than they would in a purebred. At least that's the way I read it. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Here's something I found:

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/5/1144.pdf

 

[Stocker Steve]

Thanks for the link. Looks like they had some definition problems, but decided on 13.5% rat tails with purebred angus cows and 6.6% rat tails with assorted angus cross cows when both are crossed to a Simi.

Makes you wonder if there is also a rat tail problem with some of the composite bulls being used?

 

[mncowboy]

I've seen it every-now and again when you cross angus with a really light colored hereford but its rare.