Cattle weights

[inyati13]

I sold two simangus calves monday. Born 9/27/2012 and 10/24/2012. So 8 1/2 months old. The sales receipt states average weight of 770 and a total weight of 1540. They sold for $128 a hundred. This is about what my calves are doing at weaning. BTW, the youngest one looked bigger but they did not show the individual weight. These calves were weaned on grass for about 6 weeks with some mixed feed to get them adapted to grain.

What is a target for Angus/Simmental cattle at weaning? I wean at about 6 or 7 months and hold them long enough to make sure they have their last shots and get started on mixed feed. I notice in the Select Sires catalog that WW is usually less than what I am getting on my calves at weaning. Is their a standardized timelenth for recording those WWs for SS? BTW, I am told that Simmental are bigger than Angus, but looking at the bulls in SS, the YW of the angus are higher than the simmentals. Can someone tell me about that?

 

[dun]

You have opened a can of worms! The older style of Simmenthals were bigger then the older style of angus. There were so many calving problems with those older style Simmenthals tat they've worked to moderate their size. By the same token, angus have been bred to increase their size so now both breeds are about the same. Maybe a slight size advantage to Simmenthals. The Simmenthal association has merged their EPDs with Red Angus and Gelbvieh but I haven;t seen all that much difference in the previous EPDs for our Red Angus compared to now.
With that out of the way, forage and environemtn are such huge contributors to weaning weight that it's hard to equate cattle even of the same breed from different geological areas of the country. Our cows have been selected for fescue tolerance so they aren;t typical. The neighbors cattle tend to wean a 100-150 lbs lighter then ours. The lady next door uses a charolais bull and her weaning weight run about the same as ours with the Red Angus and RA crosses. Her calves are born heavier then ours by 10-15 lbs. I haven;t figured out what the deal is with the other neighbor. We borrowed his bull for cleanup last year. His calves are born in the 65-75 pound range. Our calves by the same bull weighed around 65 lbs except for one heifer that calved with a heifer of 93 pounds. None of her ancestors have been nearly that heavy and she was only 62 lbs when she was born. We shoot for mid 6s to low 7s for weaning at 205 days. That's nothing but toxic fescue and mothers milk. Last year we had a bull calf that weaned at 880 lbs. The neighbor who'se bull we borrowed has had some calves that as yearlings barely make 400 lbs.

Sorry, didn;t mean to prattle on.

 

[bigbluegrass]

Sounds like you did pretty good at the sale. I agree with everything Dun said. I noticed in the ABS catalog that the heaviest mature weights listed in the back are Black Angus bull (2700 lbs mature weight for Program). Black Angus also has the heaviest 365 day weight listed, Upshot at 1600 lbs. With that said, ABS has a ton of Black Angus bulls and not near as many of other breeds. Bruiser (Black Angus) had a 1032 lb 205 day weaning weight, which is also the heaviest weaning weight.

Weaning weights are normally adjusted to 205 days in the catalogs, so you can compare them.

 

[thommoos]

Black Angus also has the heaviest 365 day weight listed, Upshot at 1600 lbs. With that said, ABS has a ton of Black Angus bulls and not near as many of other breeds. Bruiser (Black Angus) had a 1032 lb 205 day weaning weight, which is also the heaviest weaning weight.

Weaning weights are normally adjusted to 205 days in the catalogs, so you can compare them.

Those ABS weights are all BS, in the real world 5 lbs a day is not attainable without calf and momma stuck in a feed bin, your 2.7 adg yes that is great and I would be quite happy and content with that. Averaging $985 an animal smile all the way to the bank. :tiphat: If you did creep them you can achieve 3 lbs a day quicker but it cost you to do that.

 

[Simmental7]

Alls I can say is that my neighbor down the road has a set of cows that he had a fancy angus bull with and supposedly this bull had a 800 pound weaning weight and his calves are much lighter then his other set of cows that he had a simmi bull with probably a good 50-75 pound difference between the two..

 

[SRBeef]

Seems like the catalog doesn't tell you how much creep feed was rammed down them to get thousand pound 205 day ww. Nor how many implants. That is just not natural growth.

 

[cow pollinater]

Progeny proven accuracy is really the only way to judge a bull but even then you have to weigh in where he's being used. For example: if two progeny proven angus bulls both have a 50lb ww but one has a docility score of 30 and the other has a docility of -2, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which bull has been marketed to herds where a little extra babying is involved. On an even playing field the -2 will most likely outgrow the 30.

 

[Bigfoot]

I always take it on the chin for this------I put little faith in epd information.

 

[Nesikep]

EPD's have to be taken with a grain of salt, and especially WW's and YW's... I remember seeing a simm bull with a 205 day WW of about 900 lb... I'm with Thommoos on this one that you don't get that sort of gain with out stuffing them with grain. I am looking at an exceptional year on my steer calves, it's looking like all the steers from the cows will be 700 or better average at weaning... that's a 3 lb/day ADG, and I'm tickled pink with that. Heifers look like 600lb average this year

 

[Nite Hawk]

The birth weights and weaning weights may give general weights and a basic idea what a calf is all about,but something I am interested in, is what kind of calves are they?
Meaning, for example you can have a heavy weaning weight, but it could be that, that bloodline has extremely heavy bone versus another bloodline that throws a lighter animal that has finer bone but more meat than the heavy boned bloodline...
so possibly weight isn't everything.
Only something to think about..

 

[Nesikep]

That certainly is something to consider as well... most of mine are GV/SH crosses, so despite having fairly thick bones, they pack a lot of meat around them too

 

[djinwa]

Maybe its those darned ag econ and accounting classes that leave me feeling unsatisfied reading these discussions.

In accounting, I learned that profit equals revenue minus expenses.

Most get excited about the revenue side, as with weaning weights. Don't hear much about expenses, as in cow size and how much she eats and what kind of feed.

So there needs to be a rule that when mentioning weaning weights, you share cow size and feed consumption and type and cost of feed.

Otherwise its like the people going to the casino - always reporting their winnings, but not their losings.

 

[inyati13]

Maybe its those darned ag econ and accounting classes that leave me feeling unsatisfied reading these discussions.

In accounting, I learned that profit equals revenue minus expenses.

Most get excited about the revenue side, as with weaning weights. Don't hear much about expenses, as in cow size and how much she eats and what kind of feed.

So there needs to be a rule that when mentioning weaning weights, you share cow size and feed consumption and type and cost of feed.

Otherwise its like the people going to the casino - always reporting their winnings, but not their losings.

I know, I know. Every farmer I know whether it is cattle, tobacco, etc. is like the casino players. I have stated it on here. My neighbor says his cattle are paying for his farm. Then he proceeds to brag that his loss on his farm reduces the income taxes on his off-farm income. :roll:

In my case, my cows are simangus. They are grass fed. I wean my calves when it is convenient at 6 to 7 months. The cows range from 1200 to 1700 pounds. I feed hay harvested on my farm. I wean my calves on grass supplemented with mixed feed to break them into grain in prep for the feeder lot. I am in the fourth year of my operation so there have been a lot of infrastructure costs. Next year, I expect to be cash flow positive. On an income tax basis, I may continue to show a loss based on all the depreciation of infrastructure and equipment.

When people talk about profit. They rarely value their labor instead they point to the gain or loss on their returns. That excludes the value of their labor. The time I spend on my cattle could be redirected to employment. Based on what I could get for the labor I put into my cattle, I will be cash flow positive but not profitable. Of course, some of that time is spent playing with them. :lol:

 

[bigbluegrass]

I realize that the weaning weights, yearling weights and mature weights shown in AI catalogs don't show the full picture. But they do show in relative terms what is going on. Angus cattle are getting bigger and I don't think you can consider them (as a breed, straight across the board) as "moderate". In my opinion Angus have gotten too big, at least some of them. A lot of these modern black Angus are bigger than the modern continental breeds. Sure there are still some moderate black Angus. There are some easy keeping black Angus. I don't want Frame 6 or bigger cows. Some people do. I would rather have the old style Angus or the new style continental. For me, Black Angus are missing the target with a lot of these bigger framed, larger style of cattle. But that is just my opinion for my place. Everyone has different goals and a different way to accomplish them. A lot of people still think of black Angus as maternal, but I question that when they are larger than the continental breeds that are considered terminal. If Doc were here he could point out how breeding for single trait selection (like weights) will lead you down the path of failure.... :cboy: But I am not Doc

 

[AllForage]

I realize that the weaning weights, yearling weights and mature weights shown in AI catalogs don't show the full picture. But they do show in relative terms what is going on. Angus cattle are getting bigger and I don't think you can consider them (as a breed, straight across the board) as "moderate". In my opinion Angus have gotten too big, at least some of them. A lot of these modern black Angus are bigger than the modern continental breeds. Sure there are still some moderate black Angus. There are some easy keeping black Angus. I don't want Frame 6 or bigger cows. Some people do. I would rather have the old style Angus or the new style continental. For me, Black Angus are missing the target with a lot of these bigger framed, larger style of cattle. But that is just my opinion for my place. Everyone has different goals and a different way to accomplish them. A lot of people still think of black Angus as maternal, but I question that when they are larger than the continental breeds that are considered terminal. If Doc were here he could point out how breeding for single trait selection (like weights) will lead you down the path of failure.... :cboy: But I am not Doc

Good post, to go a little further, making any baldie out of 2 giant milking machines I think loses something. I think the efficiency that is believed goes put the window if lines are not thoughtfully selected to compliment maternally.

 

[BC]

I think the old frame to mature weight correlations are no longer relevant. In going after a smaller animal, breeders have reduced the length of leg, but retained the body mass giving an appearance of more "moderate sized" cattle. The mature weight of our breeding herd has increased and so has the maintenance requirements.

 

[dun]

I realize that the weaning weights, yearling weights and mature weights shown in AI catalogs don't show the full picture. But they do show in relative terms what is going on. Angus cattle are getting bigger and I don't think you can consider them (as a breed, straight across the board) as "moderate". In my opinion Angus have gotten too big, at least some of them. A lot of these modern black Angus are bigger than the modern continental breeds. Sure there are still some moderate black Angus. There are some easy keeping black Angus. I don't want Frame 6 or bigger cows. Some people do. I would rather have the old style Angus or the new style continental. For me, Black Angus are missing the target with a lot of these bigger framed, larger style of cattle. But that is just my opinion for my place. Everyone has different goals and a different way to accomplish them. A lot of people still think of black Angus as maternal, but I question that when they are larger than the continental breeds that are considered terminal. If Doc were here he could point out how breeding for single trait selection (like weights) will lead you down the path of failure.... :cboy: But I am not Doc

For us a 6 to 6.5 cow is about right. But a lot depends on your market. Any calf that will be under a FS 6 by very much will get you killed at sale time. By the same token, those 7 plus calves will too.

 

[AllForage]

I realize that the weaning weights, yearling weights and mature weights shown in AI catalogs don't show the full picture. But they do show in relative terms what is going on. Angus cattle are getting bigger and I don't think you can consider them (as a breed, straight across the board) as "moderate". In my opinion Angus have gotten too big, at least some of them. A lot of these modern black Angus are bigger than the modern continental breeds. Sure there are still some moderate black Angus. There are some easy keeping black Angus. I don't want Frame 6 or bigger cows. Some people do. I would rather have the old style Angus or the new style continental. For me, Black Angus are missing the target with a lot of these bigger framed, larger style of cattle. But that is just my opinion for my place. Everyone has different goals and a different way to accomplish them. A lot of people still think of black Angus as maternal, but I question that when they are larger than the continental breeds that are considered terminal. If Doc were here he could point out how breeding for single trait selection (like weights) will lead you down the path of failure.... :cboy: But I am not Doc

For us a 6 to 6.5 cow is about right. But a lot depends on your market. Any calf that will be under a FS 6 by very much will get you killed at sale time. By the same token, those 7 plus calves will too.

That same market is putting lots of folks under. If you do not have the scale to compete (150+ cows) then most should consider at least some direct marketing or marketing these moderate calves through some sort of niche buyer. The feeder and plant has always had opposite goals of the cow/calf guy. If one is maintaining fertility with little to no input besides grass and hay then I guess it suits your environment. Most have a hard time being honest with themselves at the same time as trying to achieve a constantly moving goal post.

 

[dun]

That same market is putting lots of folks under. If you do not have the scale to compete (150+ cows) then most should consider at least some direct marketing or marketing these moderate calves through some sort of niche buyer. The feeder and plant has always had opposite goals of the cow/calf guy. If one is maintaining fertility with little to no input besides grass and hay then I guess it suits your environment. Most have a hard time being honest with themselves at the same time as trying to achieve a constantly moving goal post.

Until we down sized a year or so ago we belonged to a marketing group. We (the group) would background 10-12 pot loads of comingled calves from the producers every year. Now most of our calves are sold at the salebarn, to the kids for 4h/FFA or replacement heifers. I know a number of people in this area that have tried the direct marketing scheme, they couldn;t sell what beef they produced because around here everyone just about has a steer or 2 in their yard. We don;t even finish our own beef anymore, we buy a steer from one of the kids at the fair.

 

[inyati13]

I realize that the weaning weights, yearling weights and mature weights shown in AI catalogs don't show the full picture. But they do show in relative terms what is going on. Angus cattle are getting bigger and I don't think you can consider them (as a breed, straight across the board) as "moderate". In my opinion Angus have gotten too big, at least some of them. A lot of these modern black Angus are bigger than the modern continental breeds. Sure there are still some moderate black Angus. There are some easy keeping black Angus. I don't want Frame 6 or bigger cows. Some people do. I would rather have the old style Angus or the new style continental. For me, Black Angus are missing the target with a lot of these bigger framed, larger style of cattle. But that is just my opinion for my place. Everyone has different goals and a different way to accomplish them. A lot of people still think of black Angus as maternal, but I question that when they are larger than the continental breeds that are considered terminal. If Doc were here he could point out how breeding for single trait selection (like weights) will lead you down the path of failure.... :cboy: But I am not Doc

For us a 6 to 6.5 cow is about right. But a lot depends on your market. Any calf that will be under a FS 6 by very much will get you killed at sale time. By the same token, those 7 plus calves will too.

That same market is putting lots of folks under. If you do not have the scale to compete (150+ cows) then most should consider at least some direct marketing or marketing these moderate calves through some sort of niche buyer. The feeder and plant has always had opposite goals of the cow/calf guy. If one is maintaining fertility with little to no input besides grass and hay then I guess it suits your environment. Most have a hard time being honest with themselves at the same time as trying to achieve a constantly moving goal post.

AllForage, no one has ever put that in better words. It is a concept that I have formulated in my head but did not express because I did not feel confident due to my limited experience. It does not take long to understand that the cattle business is more of a cult than a business. When I was working on a difficult enforcement case involving groundwater, everyone came to the table with their own hydrologist. By the time we got everyone involved, there were 10 different conceptual models of groundwater flow. I came to the conclusion, jokingly, that hydrology was not a science but a cult. I believe you have just exposed the tip of the iceberg. This forum is not extensive enough to fully digest what you have started. In my limited experience with beef markets, I can already see it can best be summarized as a no win market. Somewhere on here today, I saw a post about going from an angus cow calf operation to taking holstein calves from 300 pounds to 700 pounds. Good luck with that. Even as a beginner, I know that is a terrible idea, just to be blunt.