Can You Get Good Heterosis from a Crossbred Bull?

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

You get highest heterosis F1 x F1. But you can benefit from that heterosis by using the F1 COWS with a PB bull. F1 cows generally milk better, easy keepers, longevity, healthier, etc.

 

[WalnutCrest]

You get highest heterosis F1 x F1. But you can benefit from that heterosis by using the F1 COWS with a PB bull. F1 cows generally milk better, easy keepers, longevity, healthier, etc.

This is a cousin idea of a three or four breed rotation.

I believe (but can't quote the research and am not interested in searching for it right now) the calves from F1 x F1 will result in greater spread (best to worst) in calf quality ... HOWEVER ... it'll depend greatly on the quality of the cattle that go into and breeding program.

Start with junk and you'll spend decades trying to improve them ... spend the money and start with fewer cattle of higher quality ...

 

[Stocker Steve]

I believe (but can't quote the research and am not interested in searching for it right now) the calves from F1 x F1 will result in greater spread (best to worst) in calf quality ...

Been there. There are many paths to having a big spread.

 

[ccr]

You get highest heterosis F1 x F1. But you can benefit from that heterosis by using the F1 COWS with a PB bull. F1 cows generally milk better, easy keepers, longevity, healthier, etc.

Not sure what PB means. I thought with ASA a fullblood is Sim x Sim and a Purebred can be a Sim x fullblood of another breed. Not sure about the definition of Fullblood vs Purebred. Or if these terms mean different things with different breeds.

 

[WalnutCrest]

You get highest heterosis F1 x F1. But you can benefit from that heterosis by using the F1 COWS with a PB bull. F1 cows generally milk better, easy keepers, longevity, healthier, etc.

Not sure what PB means. I thought with ASA a fullblood is Sim x Sim and a Purebred can be a Sim x fullblood of another breed. Not sure about the definition of Fullblood vs Purebred. Or if these terms mean different things with different breeds.

I think it varies from breed to breed.

Aubracs ... 90%+ = purebred ... and ... 100% = fullblood ... and ... a 7/8ths animal is always only ever 87.5% and a 15/16ths animal is always only ever 93.75% ... etc ...

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Simmental
Fullblood 100% , no upgrading
Purebred, was upgraded to at least 7/8 or higher.
Sim-Angus is out of a PB (Purebred) Angus and a PB Simmental
Sim-Solution is a low % Simmental registerable thru Simmental Assn.
Edit, Sim-Angus is reg. 1/2 blood Simmental

 

[WalnutCrest]

Jeanne ... aren't Simmental's considered "fullblood" for upgrading purposes once they get to 7/8ths?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Absolutely NOT.
Actually to be considered Fullblood I believe they have to pedigree back like 5 generations 100% because people were importing cattle that were NOT 100% and calling them Fullblood because they were imported.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Absolutely NOT.
Actually to be considered Fullblood I believe they have to pedigree back like 5 generations 100% because people were importing cattle that were NOT 100% and calling them Fullblood because they were imported.

I found what I was looking for. and it lays it out like I thought ... a PB x. 3/4 = PB ... so, once an animal achieves PB status, it's worth 100% credit, same as a FB animal, in terms of a breed-up program of non-Simmental stock.

As a result, there is quite a bit of 'rounding up' in the breed-up program. This is not a unique trait of the Simmental Association; most continental breeds embraced the same protocol used here (I believe the Aubrac association is the only association of continental cattle that does something different). To wit, Simmentals say that:

3/8 x. 1/2 = 1/2
1/2 x. 5/8 = 5/8
5/8 x. 0 = 3/8
3/4 x. 3/8 = 5/8
...etc...

Drawn out over numerous generations using this approach, you'll find that PB animals bred up from other PB animals (which are then used to make more PB animals, etc.) as laid out in the above link will result in PB animals with less than 75% Simmental blood ... and therefore less heterosis than a commercial producer might expect.

This detail should also throw a bit of a kink in some of the more recent heterosis studies where PB animals are used (instead of FB animals) where the PB status was a function of similar breed-up programs.

...so, how would a PB be created if no other PB animals were used?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

WalnutCr, you sorta have the concept, nut not quite.
A PB is NEVER considered 100%.
PB originally were developed using Fullbloods. Breeding up with FB bred to 0%, getting half bloods, bred to FB getting 3/4, bred to FB, getting 7/8. In the beginning females were considered PB at 7/8 but bulls had to be 15/16 to be PB.
We had a very established population before they dropped the 15.16 requirement.
A PB is never only 75% Simmental actual genetics. You forget we have been established since 1968.
An old PB line of cattle have an unmeasurable amount of "other breed".

 

[ccr]

WalnutCr, you sorta have the concept, nut not quite.
A PB is NEVER considered 100%.
PB originally were developed using Fullbloods. Breeding up with FB bred to 0%, getting half bloods, bred to FB getting 3/4, bred to FB, getting 7/8. In the beginning females were considered PB at 7/8 but bulls had to be 15/16 to be PB.
We had a very established population before they dropped the 15.16 requirement.
A PB is never only 75% Simmental actual genetics. You forget we have been established since 1968.
An old PB line of cattle have an unmeasurable amount of "other breed".

Jeanne, thanks for the explanation.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Jeanne ... pull up excel and run a column of formulas and I think you'll be surprised. I know I was the first time I did it. I think you'll find what the Limousin and Gelbvieh associations knew 20 years ago - the average % blood in associations using this sort of calculation methodology is less than 75%.

Actually, an old PB line of cattle have an expanding amount of other breeds, unless fullbloods are used on a consistent basis.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We will agree to disagree.
ASA did a lot of DNA testing on black bulls, coming up with my quote of "unmeasurable" other breeds.
There are a lot of up-grading now. 1/2 bloods have gotten extremely popular - as cows and as bulls - and as feedlot cattle.
But, no matter how you figure it, 4/8 to 7/8 = 5.5/8 (called 3/4). 5.5/8 x 7/8 = 6.25/8 (called 7/8)
So, you would have to use % bulls for many years to creep up (or down) to 75%.

 

[True Grit Farms]

We will agree to disagree.
ASA did a lot of DNA testing on black bulls, coming up with my quote of "unmeasurable" other breeds.
There are a lot of up-grading now. 1/2 bloods have gotten extremely popular - as cows and as bulls - and as feedlot cattle.
But, no matter how you figure it, 4/8 to 7/8 = 5.5/8 (called 3/4). 5.5/8 x 7/8 = 6.25/8 (called 7/8)
So, you would have to use % bulls for many years to creep up (or down) to 75%.

Registration Types
How an animal is registered depends on its breed composition. Breed composite is determined by the parents of the animal.

Purebred (Simmental)
Any animal whose parents are registered as purebred and any animal with 1 parent registered as purebred and the other parent registered as 3/4 Simmental.
SimAngus
Any animal whose parents are both registered and is at least 1/8 Simmental and 1/4 Angus and no more than 1/4 other breed
SimAngus HT
Any animal whose parents are both registered and is at least 1/8 Simmental and 1/4 Angus, no more than 1/4 other breed and have at least 1/8 Brahman.
Simgenetics
Any animal whose sire is a registered and is at least 1/8 Simmental and is not a Purebred, SimAngus or Fullblood
Simbrah (Simmental-Brahman composite)
Any animal whose sire is registered and is at least 1/8 Simmental and 1/8 Brahman and no more than 3/8 other breed. A Simbrah animals also qualify as Simgenetics or SimAngus. Breeders must specify if the animal is to be registered as Simbrah. Note: To qualify for the Simbrah Registry an animal must have a combination of Simmental and Brahman blood of five-eighths (5/8) or greater.
Purebred Simbrah (Simmental-Brahman composite)
Any animals whose parents are registered and is 5/8 Simmental and 3/8 Brahman.
Full Blood
Any purebred Simmental animal whose parents are both designated as Fullblood
Foundation
Any animal that is registered with another recognized breed association and has been requested to be entered into ASA's registry (see foundation registration for further information) or an animal qualifed by its registered parents.

The ASA needs to put Fullblood Foundation above purebred, in the registration types.

 

[WalnutCrest]

100% x. 0% = 50%
100% x. 50% = 75%
100% x. 75% = 87.5%
100% x. 87.5% = 93.75% = foundational purebred

93.75% (foundational PB) x. 0% = 46.875% (not 50%) ... a difference of 3.125%
93.75% x. 46.875% = 70.3125% (not 75%) ... a difference of 4.6875%
93.75% x. 70.3125% = 82.03125% (not 87.5%) ... a difference of 5.46875% ... this is now considered a PB ...

...note how each generation is actually getting further and further away from the assumed percentages?

So, now we have:

82.03125% x. 0% = 41.015625% (not 50%) ... a difference of 8.984375%
82.03125% x. 41.015625% = 61.6640625% (not 75%) ... a difference of 13.3359875%
82.03125% x. 61.6640625% = 71.8476525% (not 87.5%) ... a difference of 15.65.234375% ... this is now considered a PB ...

71.8476525% x. 0% = 35.923828125% (not 50%) ... a difference of 14.076171875%
71.8476525% x. 35.923828125% = 53.8857% (not 75%) ... a difference of 21.1143%
71.8476525% x. 53.8857% = 62.8667% (not 87.5%) ... a difference of 24.6333% ... this is now considered a PB ...

And, if the ASA has been doing this since 1968 ...

So far, all I've done is track the first farm who imported genetics and up-graded their first animals ... then convinced their neighbor to do the same ... then that family convinced a third ... and the third convinced a fourth. The fourth family has PB animals that are approx. 5/8ths Simmental.

The impact, to me, of this sort of analysis is one big reason I've decided to run fullbloods of the two breeds I raise. FWIW.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Forced myself to walk thru the numbers.
Apparently some of my cattle are purebred.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

WC, that was a lot of work, but it shows me where you are.
The first few decades consisted of upgrading mostly with Fullbloods. With the great Flech bulls, people continued using FB bulls.
Yes, there is definately a possibility of many cattle with your scenario, especially with the currant popularity our breed is having right now using upgrading.

 

[Stocker Steve]

There are a few folks here using Hereford, Limiflex, or Balancer bulls to upgrade, but Sim Angus bulls are by far the most popular.

PB Simi is tougher sell, but you could relabel them as Sim Angus. 8)

 

[WalnutCrest]

WC, that was a lot of work, but it shows me where you are.
The first few decades consisted of upgrading mostly with Fullbloods. With the great Flech bulls, people continued using FB bulls.
Yes, there is definately a possibility of many cattle with your scenario, especially with the currant popularity our breed is having right now using upgrading.

Actually, it wasn't much work at all ... just about 15 minutes, a calculator and a willingness to type it out.

And, I would put forward that if someone traced back their cattle to the first instances of non-Simmental blood in the pedigree and walked it all the way forward, you'd be surprised at the percentages. Now THAT project would take some serious time. 1968 was a very long time ago ...

If you choose to do this with an animal or two in your current herd, I'd be interested in what you come up with. I'm not asking you to do it, just saying if you do, i'd be interested (and I think you'd be surprised).

 

[cbcr]

As we register animals in both the Composite Beef Cattle and Composite Dairy Cattle Registries, yes it is surprising at the difference in breed composition of the animals. We use actual breed composition and do not follow that if an animal is 87.5% use it as 100%, that is wrong. Our members want it right. It is also surprising at the % of dairy in the breed makeup of some of the beef breeds. But so that it wouldn't show it was figured as XB for Crossbred Beef.

We have processed several pedigrees and many go back to the early 70's and many back into the 60's, and some we can go further back if need be. Some breeds conveniently leave out some of the breeds in the makeup or give another breed an ID and consider it as their breed. Some of the so called "purebred" animals are more crossbred than some may realize.

March 11th we will celebrate our 5th year.