Can anyone tell me about these bulls?

[PGNsalers]

I purchased some semen at a dispersal and had to take everything in the tank. What can you tell me about these bulls? Don't know if I should use them or throw them away. Thanks.

Take Charge, Heartbeat, Pistol Pete, Power Blitz, Payback, Final Destination, Power Play, Total Play, Rambo, Concorde, Caprice, Super Star, Shilo, Heartbeat, Heat Seeker, Playboy

 

[Taurus]

It's important to see which bulls are TH and PHA carriers that you do not keep any replacements out of these bulls or at least mate these bulls to the clean cows to get a terminal calf. You have several bulls that are carriers of TH and PHA.

 

[Chi496]

Quickly scanning your list the only THC bull I see is Heatseeker. Unlike Taururs. I look at cattle with genetic defects as something to manage not automatically discount. I have several carrier cows in my herd. That being said my herd bull is both Th/Pha free. I also AI those tested carrier cows to bulls that are tested clean for the cows defect. Every heifer sold as a prospect or retained as a replacement in my operation that is a result of suspect genetic defect mating is tested. That's why I say defects are a management decision. You must decide if yo want to manage the issue before using sires with the potential of genetic defect. That goes for Th,Pha,AAM,NH,DM, and I know I'm leaving out a few of the Angus issues.

 

[Taurus]

IMO its unethical to continue produce the carrier animals that have lethal defects but to each their own. Chi496, you're missed several bulls that are carriers. I did checked them for the gene defects.

 

[Chi496]

Indicus,
Where do you get off calling someone or their management practices unethical ? What was your last high selling calf 1.25cwt? Let's just say mine was well above that. And I will use my grandfathers advice, don't argue with dumb people , they will only drag you to their level.

 

[3waycross]

Indicus,
Where do you get off calling someone or their management practices unethical ? What was your last high selling calf 1.25cwt? Let's just say mine was well above that. And I will use my grandfathers advice, don't argue with dumb people , they will only drag you to their level.

You're a quick learner :tiphat:

 

[Taurus]

Like I said it before.... to each their own. I hope the club calf association needs to do something with the bulls with TH and PHA defects before they run out of the clean bulls.

 

[Chi496]

Indicus,
Where do you get off calling someone or their management practices unethical ? What was your last high selling calf 1.25cwt? Let's just say mine was well above that. And I will use my grandfathers advice, don't argue with dumb people , they will only drag you to their level.

You're a quick learner :tiphat:

I try but when someone questions your integrity it's hard to let go.

 

[Indicus]

Indicus,
Where do you get off calling someone or their management practices unethical ? What was your last high selling calf 1.25cwt? Let's just say mine was well above that. And I will use my grandfathers advice, don't argue with dumb people , they will only drag you to their level.

First; I presume you mean "Taurus"?In that case :bday: to him!
Calves even obvious culls go for close to 2.0 cwt
And in my book managing the defects rather than culling everything is the opposite of the dreaded single trait selection. :2cents:

 

[Taurus]

Indicus,
Where do you get off calling someone or their management practices unethical ? What was your last high selling calf 1.25cwt? Let's just say mine was well above that. And I will use my grandfathers advice, don't argue with dumb people , they will only drag you to their level.

First; I presume you mean "Taurus"?In that case :bday: to him!
Calves even obvious culls go for close to 2.0 cwt
And in my book managing the defects rather than culling everything is the opposite of the dreaded single trait selection. :2cents:

You can drop your act in here. I asked the moderators to track down your IP address a long time ago and they told me that you have a different username on here. I found it to be very sick for you to use a different username to bullying me for just giggles and laughs. You are not fooling anyone in here.

 

[Indicus]

Bullying you? Read my less than ten posts here, where is the bullying?

 

[shadyhollownj]

I second Taurus. You should not be breeding animals that are carriers intentionally. My neighbor does it and it bothers the hell outta me. Who cares if you say they are only for meat. When that calf leaves your farm you have no clue what really happens to it down the road. I dont really know what else is going on here but what does the price of the last calf you sold have to do with breeding defects?

 

[Chi496]

I'm trying to keep this to just what it is. Why should/does another breeders choice bother you? My business is based upon breeding and marketing show animals. Yes I realize that I have a niche market just the same as many others on this board. My animals are geared toward their end use is the show ring, first then either the rail or to a program that knows what they are working with.i do not operate under the false pretense that I'm producing range mommas, not commercial bulls, but show stock. Those that are in this sector of our great industry understand my position, while some may choose to use only defect free genetics many others look at it as I do you manage around them. Some may think my stance on this subject is out of pure arrogance, if that's the case so be it.

 

[VCC]

"carrier animals that have lethal defects" These animals do not have lethal defects, they just carry the gene that could produce an animal with that defect, if a carrier is bred to a carrier you have a 50% chance the breeding will produce an animal with the defect, 25% chance it is a carrier, and 25% it is clean. Since the bull calves get steered, there is little chance they will spread the gene, if he test his heifers and passes that information on to his clients and they breed accordingly they should be fine as well.
If you want a clean herd, that your choice, if he wants to manage his carriers and is diligent about the process he will be fine as well.
Problem is most the Club Calf bulls that throw the type are carriers, so until they start selecting for a different type at shows people will continue to breed cattle that carry the defective gene. There has been no proof that the steers that are winning carry the gene since there is no reason to test a steer, but the general consensus is that the steers that win are in fact carriers, at least of the TH gene. The bulls that are out of carriers that are clean and have the show calf look do not seem to pass that look on to their offspring. Anyone buying cattle with club calf genetics for breeding purpose should be aware of the defects and test the cattle of questionable mating, if it has not already been done.

This debate has been going on for years, and will continue I am sure, kind of like vegans and meat eaters, Liberals and Conservatives.

 

[DLD]

I purchased some semen at a dispersal and had to take everything in the tank. What can you tell me about these bulls? Don't know if I should use them or throw them away. Thanks.

Take Charge, Heartbeat, Pistol Pete, Power Blitz, Payback, Final Destination, Power Play, Total Play, Rambo, Concorde, Caprice, Super Star, Shilo, Heartbeat, Heat Seeker, Playboy

PGN, a few of those bulls are worth more than your average $20 a unit. Heartbeat and Pistol Pete are clean higher % MA bulls and will make some really nice females for any kind of program. When you say Power Play that could be either Black Power Play (Chi) or PS Power Play (Angus)... The rest of those bulls that I'm familiar with you probably don't need to use without some research, but some of them definitely have some value - I wouldn't throw it out.

I don't have anything to do with the apparently old feud in this thread, but yes carrier genetics can be used both profitably and ethically. I would agree that producing affected calves isn't ethical, but if you don't breed two carriers of the same defect together, that will never happen.

 

[glacierridge]

I second Taurus. You should not be breeding animals that are carriers intentionally. My neighbor does it and it bothers the be nice outta me. Who cares if you say they are only for meat. When that calf leaves your farm you have no clue what really happens to it down the road. I dont really know what else is going on here but what does the price of the last calf you sold have to do with breeding defects?

I concur.

If you wish to use carrier bulls... And not retain the calves for your OWN "management" and want to sell them...
You should have enough integrity to at the very least sterilize male and female calf alike so that others won't unknowingly attempt to use calves for breeding.
MARKET prospect calves I wouldn't be uncomfortable with.

Many people who would buy them would not guess them to be club calf sired bulls and would likely not even give it a second thought they could have some debilitating genetic problem written in their DNA.

 

[Taurus]

Not a little while ago, I saw a club calf sired bull for sale on Craigslist. The ad don't say who his sire is but the owners sure keep LOTS of the daughters. Makes me wondering how many carrier animals leave the farm and not know what happened to them after they are being sold. Saw few club calves run in the ring at the sale barn not too long time ago and I don't know if the heifers went to the feedlots or someone's pasture.

 

[VCC]

You buy a bull of off Craig's list and do not know who the sire is you are asking for more issues than if it is a just TH or PHA carrier. If someone is buying heifers at the sale yard for cows, there is a 99 percent chance they are not going to be bred clubby, so the chance of them being bred to a carrier are slim to none. That is unless it is the same guy the buys the Craig's List bull with unknown lineage, then who knows.
How many commercial Angus type cows carry the Angus defect gene? Breed them to no carrier your fine.
Breeding clubby, use clean cows on carrier bulls, clean bulls on carrier cows, manage your herd. If you plan on selling breeding stock test it and be ethical. If you plan on buying Clubby heifers or bulls make sure they are tested, clean by lineage, or breed clean if you do not know.

If you buy from a replacement sale or off of the ranch, the breeder should be up front about what they are selling you, and if it is a carrier they should let you know. If you are the guy who just buy whatever at the sales yard, let it breed with whatever else they get at the sales yard, they are going to have more issues than just genetic defects, these are the same people who do not vaccinate, worm, or manage their herd, go figure.

To tell you the truth, milking and calving issues are going to be your bigger problem with some of the clubby bred heifers even when bred to non clubby bulls but that is a different thread.

 

[Chi496]

Not a little while ago, I saw a club calf sired bull for sale on Craigslist. The ad don't say who his sire is but the owners sure keep LOTS of the daughters. Makes me wondering how many carrier animals leave the farm and not know what happened to them after they are being sold. Saw few club calves run in the ring at the sale barn not too long time ago and I don't know if the heifers went to the feedlots or someone's pasture.

If your buying your replacements from Craigslist or out of the yards you get what you deserve. I don't even buy recips out of the yards. The only time I'm at the yards is to drop off junk cows or to pick up the check from said cows. That's what the yards is for.

 

[DLD]

Would this same conversation be happening if the original post had been asking about a tank full of old Angus semen, including known defect carriers? I very seriously doubt it. There are way more of those carrier Angus cattle out there floating around than there are carrier clubbies, and the chances of them accidentally getting mated back to another carrier of the same defect are far greater.

Whether it's Craigslist or your local sale barn, anyone that buys breeding stock without knowing how they're bred ought to be aware that comes with some risks. I'm not condemning buying from Craigslist or the sale barn, I buy cattle I can use wherever I find them - but I'm aware of what's out there. Most people that don't care - well, they just don't care, and none of us are going to change them.

If you're worried about getting an affected calf, just be sure to always use clean bulls, and you'll never get one.