Calving ease bulls

[Till-Hill]

Great topic.
#1 if you can't use your heifers own breed on her get rid of her. There is enough good cattle in this country not to make anymore junk.
#2 There is no such thing as gaurunteed CE in an unproved bull. When using A.I. pick high accuraccy bulls that are at least in the top 25% OF THEIR BREED.
#3 CE is built from the cow first. If your heifers momma had troubles then why the heck is the heifer on your farm? (kinda back to #1)
I breed Angus heifers to PB simmental bulls every year. To me as a breed the simmy's have better of the top end of CE than angus does anymore.

I have an angus cow that drops a 100 lb calf like she farted. I have a shorty cow that drops a 125 lb calf while inhailing, and a simmy hfr that a 90 lb fell out of her while she was eating at bunk. But I really love them 65-80 lb calves.

On my farm if I pull it, the calf and the cow GETS CULLED. Unless it's twins or a normal problem. A BEEF COW THAT CANNOT CALVE ON HER OWN IS NOT A BEEF COW AT ALL.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Till-Hill - Thanks you for this statement: "I breed Angus heifers to PB simmental bulls every year. To me as a breed the simmy's have better of the top end of CE than angus does anymore." I firmly believe this to be true - but, eveyone knows I'm a true-blue Simmental breeder and probably wouldn't believe that statement from me (BREED promo)

VanC - I understand what you are saying. But, first off - there should not be any different goals for a PB operation compared to a commercial. We sell by the pound (steers - & quality breeding stock is "gauged" by the pound), it costs PB breeders just as much to raise heifers. Why would you think we don't want to keep cows till they are 12+???
We don't want to stay up watching heifers any more than a commercial man. Yeah, yeah, I have camera's. Anyone could - they cost a big $120.

Most beef producers do use a live bull. But, every PB operation that is utilizing "curvebending" genetics has bulls to sell with those curvebending genetics. Curvebenders have been around for quite a long time now. Most cows in their herds have the curvebending genetics along with the sire. True, they won't have accurate EPD's, but if they are out of a good solid line of calving ease parents (both sides), they should be great for the commercial or PB breeder to use on heifers.

I personnally think the biggest problem breeders (ALL breeders) have with calving out heifers, is the MANAGEMENT of those heifers. Don't breed them unless they are 55-65% of their mature weight.

On a side note - "my" farm is always labeled as a "show" herd, and that's fine. But, I do want to say that my farm is operated like a commercial farm. Yes, we show. We show about 5% of our herd each year as a TOOL for advertising. We do love it - but, it is a great asset to selling cattle.

 

[1wlimo]

Till-Hill - Thanks you for this statement: "I breed Angus heifers to PB simmental bulls every year. To me as a breed the simmy's have better of the top end of CE than angus does anymore." I firmly believe this to be true - but, eveyone knows I'm a true-blue Simmental breeder and probably wouldn't believe that statement from me (BREED promo)

VanC - I understand what you are saying. But, first off - there should not be any different goals for a PB operation compared to a commercial. We sell by the pound (steers - & quality breeding stock is "gauged" by the pound), it costs PB breeders just as much to raise heifers. Why would you think we don't want to keep cows till they are 12+???
We don't want to stay up watching heifers any more than a commercial man. Yeah, yeah, I have camera's. Anyone could - they cost a big $120.

Most beef producers do use a live bull. But, every PB operation that is utilizing "curvebending" genetics has bulls to sell with those curvebending genetics. Curvebenders have been around for quite a long time now. Most cows in their herds have the curvebending genetics along with the sire. True, they won't have accurate EPD's, but if they are out of a good solid line of calving ease parents (both sides), they should be great for the commercial or PB breeder to use on heifers.

I personnally think the biggest problem breeders (ALL breeders) have with calving out heifers, is the MANAGEMENT of those heifers. Don't breed them unless they are 55-65% of their mature weight.

On a side note - "my" farm is always labeled as a "show" herd, and that's fine. But, I do want to say that my farm is operated like a commercial farm. Yes, we show. We show about 5% of our herd each year as a TOOL for advertising. We do love it - but, it is a great asset to selling cattle.

Not trying to dissagree with anything you have just said, but there are still a lot of comercial producers who would not even look at EPD's when buying a bull,

They calf their cows out on range or work full time,

some heifer managment is not ideal, the pasture can not be as productive as it should be and they get less growth etc.

Saddly there is a long way from the top of the industry to the bottom.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Very true - but I think many people use "commercial herd" as an excuse for poor management. The large commercial herds have as good, if not better management than we do.
Heifers are our lifeline to improvement. They are a precious asset.

 

[showing71]

Great topic.
#1 if you can't use your heifers own breed on her get rid of her. There is enough good cattle in this country not to make anymore junk.

Just to play a little bit of Devil's advocate here... Like I said in my first post, I use Red Angus proven CE AI sires on my purebred Tarentaise heifers for their first calf - and just to clarify, every cow or heifer on my place gets AI'd before going to pasture with the herd bulls. In a breed like Tarentaise, which aren't considered a true CE breed, I don't have access to the amount of bulls out there for AI like many other breeds, let alone have a selection of proven CE AI sires. I also would have to drive over 5 hours to find another purebred breeder who would maybe (a big maybe) have a bull that could be used on heifers. And even then it's not a guarantee that he'll be true CE, especially in a breed where we don't have enough numbers to truly examine low BW bloodlines or EPDs.

Yes, I have AI'd Tar heifers to Tar bulls that were lower BW, but the bull was no where near what could be classified as CE. And yes, I have had some purebred calves from this mating born at or below 80 lb. But, I have also had heifers bred the same way have 100 lb calves, and I know cow lines have something to do with it - and I do keep track of this and cull when I see a pattern in the cow line, but there are flukes. As cows, they can be bred to whatever purebred bull and have no problems whatsoever. So, do I take the risk of having purebred calves out of heifers that I will have to, at the very least, assist somewhat? Or do I continue to breed them to proven CE Red Angus AI sires, and get my 80 lb calves that consistently come out with no problems?

 

[1wlimo]

Very true - but I think many people use "commercial herd" as an excuse for poor management. The large commercial herds have as good, if not better management than we do.
Heifers are our lifeline to improvement. They are a precious asset.

The problem with many poor performance herds is that the manager thinks they are good! :cry2:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Very true - but I think many people use "commercial herd" as an excuse for poor management. The large commercial herds have as good, if not better management than we do.
Heifers are our lifeline to improvement. They are a precious asset.

The problem with many poor performance herds is that the manager thinks they are good! :cry2:

Oh - sooooo very very true!!! What I call "barn blind". One thing about showing cattle - you soon learn how barn blind you are or are not. Well, some do - some just blame the bad judge. :banana:

I really really don't want to offend anyone, I just have a very hard time understanding why anyone would propogate a breed that has not (in this day and age) improved it's calving ease. I find the same problem with the Belgian Blues - I have been told by breeders that anything 3/4 & above, you need to PLAN on C-section. :shock:
If a breed couldn't be turned out to propagate on it's own, it's hard to understand it's usefullness in our industry. I must be looking at it differently. If a breed can't be used on it's own heifers, than if turned out on their own, they would soon eliminate themselves.

 

[TexasBred]

Great topic.
#1 if you can't use your heifers own breed on her get rid of her. There is enough good cattle in this country not to make anymore junk.

Just to play a little bit of Devil's advocate here... Like I said in my first post, I use Red Angus proven CE AI sires on my purebred Tarentaise heifers for their first calf - and just to clarify, every cow or heifer on my place gets AI'd before going to pasture with the herd bulls. In a breed like Tarentaise, which aren't considered a true CE breed, I don't have access to the amount of bulls out there for AI like many other breeds, let alone have a selection of proven CE AI sires. I also would have to drive over 5 hours to find another purebred breeder who would maybe (a big maybe) have a bull that could be used on heifers. And even then it's not a guarantee that he'll be true CE, especially in a breed where we don't have enough numbers to truly examine low BW bloodlines or EPDs.

Yes, I have AI'd Tar heifers to Tar bulls that were lower BW, but the bull was no where near what could be classified as CE. And yes, I have had some purebred calves from this mating born at or below 80 lb. But, I have also had heifers bred the same way have 100 lb calves, and I know cow lines have something to do with it - and I do keep track of this and cull when I see a pattern in the cow line, but there are flukes. As cows, they can be bred to whatever purebred bull and have no problems whatsoever. So, do I take the risk of having purebred calves out of heifers that I will have to, at the very least, assist somewhat? Or do I continue to breed them to proven CE Red Angus AI sires, and get my 80 lb calves that consistently come out with no problems?

Knowing you have this dilema why have you chosen Tarentaise??

 

[showing71]

Knowing you have this dilema why have you chosen Tarentaise??

Because we do have a market for them, maybe not for purebred females, but for purebred bulls and crossbred heifers, and we have to have the purebred females to produce purebred bulls. Our crossbred steers -mostly half tar, half angus or red angus- outperform many other breeds and composites in the feedlot we send them to. Crossbred females make great commercial cows, they get the milk and maternity from the Tar and the muscle and other attributes from the other part of the cross. From the calves I've seen out of crossbred cows we've sold, the Angus/Tarentaise cross works great with charolais, herefords, and limousin bulls to get nice feedlot calves. A lot of our bull buyers use the bulls on continental/british crosses and love the way the calves perform.

I know there's folks out on the East coast who have purebred Tarentaise herds where they just turn out the heifers with their cows and herd bull, and they have no problems. But, like I said before, I can't get semen from their bulls (they don't want to draw them, as they don't AI) or justify a trip there to try and buy something that 'might' work. With the breeders closest to me, we have bought and sold calves, bulls, and cows from each other, so there isn't much for a different gene pool. With the demand for crossbred calves, I'm not out anything breeding heifers to a bull outside their breed for their first calf. I just don't want the chance of having to help heifers every time they calve just to get a purebred calf, when I have 45 purebred cows in the pen that will do it on their own. And having a small breed with small numbers and small herd sizes, with an older member base and few young people interested, doesn't help any.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

That is confusing to me. If you can sell purebred bulls for buyers to use on british cows or continentals, I would have thought the same bulls could be used on your heifers.
BTW, you can get all the milk & maternal from Simmental AND have easy calving - and I'm sure there are other breeds that offer up the same benefits without the CE issue. To me, if your PB bulls are too hard calving for your heifers, than they are potential difficult calvers for your customers. I would not risk that. One bad issue and there goes your reputation.

 

[showing71]

That is confusing to me. If you can sell purebred bulls for buyers to use on british cows or continentals, I would have thought the same bulls could be used on your heifers.
BTW, you can get all the milk & maternal from Simmental AND have easy calving - and I'm sure there are other breeds that offer up the same benefits without the CE issue. To me, if your PB bulls are too hard calving for your heifers, than they are potential difficult calvers for your customers. I would not risk that. One bad issue and there goes your reputation.

That is your key word, cows. I do not use heifer bulls on my cows, nor do I use cow bulls on my heifers. I have enough pasture to be able to split up my cows into each breed with a herd bull of their own breed, and keep my heifers in a separate pasture with a heifer bull. That's just how I do it. Yes, there's other breeds out there, but there's problems in every breed whether people will admit it or not. I've never sold a PB Tar bull to a customer telling them he would be safe on heifers, in fact, I never guarantee a bull of mine of any breed safe to use on heifers unless I have no doubt in my mind he will be. Maybe I am wrong in ensuring my PB Tar heifers have a live calf that will not be a PB. But until I find a true, heifer proven PB Tarentaise bull (if anyone knows of one, let me know), I'd rather have a live, healthy crossbred. I'll rely on my cows to produce the PB calves.

 

[redfornow]

I feel the bull a heifer is bred to comes down to value.

In a registered herd a heifer is gonna be worth 3 to 6 times what a comm heifer will sell for or more....

So it stands to reason that the extra time and money spent in AI and camera's and watching would be worth it as the return is greater.

Whereas your average commercial guy is about pounds, with as few worries as possible.
Here in ky most farmers are working second jobs or cattle is the second job behind row crops tobacco and now farmers markets.
There isnt time in the day to watch a screen to see if a heifer gets it out. I'm not saying it the right way, its just what I see.

So I understand the interest in a "bullet proof" way of calving out heifers, people been looking for that for years and I would imagine will continue for as long as cattle are here.

 

[3waycross]

I feel the bull a heifer is bred to comes down to value.

In a registered herd a heifer is gonna be worth 3 to 6 times what a comm heifer will sell for or more....

So it stands to reason that the extra time and money spent in AI and camera's and watching would be worth it as the return is greater.

Whereas your average commercial guy is about pounds, with as few worries as possible.
Here in ky most farmers are working second jobs or cattle is the second job behind row crops tobacco and now farmers markets.
There isnt time in the day to watch a screen to see if a heifer gets it out. I'm not saying it the right way, its just what I see.

So I understand the interest in a "bullet proof" way of calving out heifers, people been looking for that for years and I would imagine will continue for as long as cattle are here.

You sure about that!!!!!!!!!!?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

There are many nitch markets to help produce a profit in our wonderful industry. We all do what we can to keep our head afloat. S71, I'm not saying what YOU do is wrong, just discussing a broad topic. I admit, your comments & others made on these boards got me thinking about this subject.

3-Way, I know you know me better, but to clarify for others - I don't spend daylight hours watching our cameras. They are used as a luxury for me to stay in bed at night. I wake up, whenever, & take a look at the "screen" & go back to sleep. In the cold of winter, this is a WONDERFUL LUXURY!!! Our heifers, along with our cows are kept outside during the day, & only the close ones get put under camera during the night. And yes, "some" PB heifers are worth 3-6 times the value of commercial - but, certainly NOT ALL.

 

[thommoos]

Jeanne is right, why go out side your own, breed, actual birth weight believe come more from how the hiefer/cow is fed, if they are MUD FAT, it will be a heavy calf, working clothes probably average size, case and point 6 yod cow on free choice, that calf wieghed 105 lbs, he was a month old when he hit the ground, but she and all the animals there are MUD FAT, leave the working clothes on them, then feed a little extra AFTER calving. :2cents:

 

[redfornow]

I feel the bull a heifer is bred to comes down to value.

In a registered herd a heifer is gonna be worth 3 to 6 times what a comm heifer will sell for or more....

So it stands to reason that the extra time and money spent in AI and camera's and watching would be worth it as the return is greater.

Whereas your average commercial guy is about pounds, with as few worries as possible.
Here in ky most farmers are working second jobs or cattle is the second job behind row crops tobacco and now farmers markets.
There isnt time in the day to watch a screen to see if a heifer gets it out. I'm not saying it the right way, its just what I see.

So I understand the interest in a "bullet proof" way of calving out heifers, people been looking for that for years and I would imagine will continue for as long as cattle are here.

You sure about that!!!!!!!!!!?

Not all but many heifers will, well that is if you have a registered herd thats worth a darn.
If you don't than get out of the game.
My point is about value, no commercial calf is gonna ever be worth that.
So the amount of time and effort spent will be equal to the amount of perceived value that can be returned.

 

[redfornow]

I don't spend daylight hours watching our cameras. They are used as a luxury for me to stay in bed at night. I wake up, whenever, & take a look at the "screen" & go back to sleep. In the cold of winter, this is a WONDERFUL LUXURY!!! Our heifers, along with our cows are kept outside during the day, & only the close ones get put under camera during the night. And yes, "some" PB heifers are worth 3-6 times the value of commercial - but, certainly NOT ALL.

Jeanne,

I would say that I watch mine more than you watch yours... lol
Not for cash, cause it wouldn't make financial sense, but cause I love cattle, and I love my cattle.

But on a side note, I don't know a herd here in ky that isn't a dairy herd that ever brings a cow in the barn that ain't making the last trip to town. The point being we all have ways of doing things, ways that work for us.

 

[plumber_greg]

I don't spend daylight hours watching our cameras. They are used as a luxury for me to stay in bed at night. I wake up, whenever, & take a look at the "screen" & go back to sleep. In the cold of winter, this is a WONDERFUL LUXURY!!! Our heifers, along with our cows are kept outside during the day, & only the close ones get put under camera during the night. And yes, "some" PB heifers are worth 3-6 times the value of commercial - but, certainly NOT ALL.

Jeanne,

I would say that I watch mine more than you watch yours... lol
Not for cash, cause it wouldn't make financial sense, but cause I love cattle, and I love my cattle.

But on a side note, I don't know a herd here in ky that isn't a dairy herd that ever brings a cow in the barn that ain't making the last trip to town. The point being we all have ways of doing things, ways that work for us.

Must be either no winter in Ky. or no one calves in the winter or you don't know of many herds. Calve when Jeanne, myself, and several others do, and then you'll see them in a barn. gs

 

[redfornow]

I don't spend daylight hours watching our cameras. They are used as a luxury for me to stay in bed at night. I wake up, whenever, & take a look at the "screen" & go back to sleep. In the cold of winter, this is a WONDERFUL LUXURY!!! Our heifers, along with our cows are kept outside during the day, & only the close ones get put under camera during the night. And yes, "some" PB heifers are worth 3-6 times the value of commercial - but, certainly NOT ALL.

Jeanne,

I would say that I watch mine more than you watch yours... lol
Not for cash, cause it wouldn't make financial sense, but cause I love cattle, and I love my cattle.

But on a side note, I don't know a herd here in ky that isn't a dairy herd that ever brings a cow in the barn that ain't making the last trip to town. The point being we all have ways of doing things, ways that work for us.

Must be either no winter in Ky. or no one calves in the winter or you don't know of many herds. Calve when Jeanne, myself, and several others do, and then you'll see them in a barn. gs

Greg,

I'm sure our winters would be considered tame compared to yours. Here most avoid deep winter cause you never know what your gonna get.

But case in point, there have been alot of blanket statements made here with no regard to location, goals, and lifestyles of the persons involved.

As to how many herds I know. lol Heck its the internet we dont even know if the people we are talking to own cows?
I know a person or two that owns a cow or two...

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Management varies GREATLY depending on location. And rightly so.
My thoughts are that you should have a breed of cattle that fits YOUR environment so that you can raise heifers, under your particular management, to be able to give you a healthy, live, growthy, money making calf - not a throw-away (not that any are throw-aways, just won't make enough to pay the upkeep of the heifer dam.)
If you grass feed (which I love that term - don't we ALL grass feed???), and it takes a heifer a year & a half to get big enough to breed, that's fine. It's just my opionion that you should be able to breed her to her own breed and feel safe. Many don't use the same breed because their management is crossbreeding - very smart - money making decision. But, to HAVE to get a bull that produces a "dink" calf just doesn't seem right to me.
There is no "only" way to do anything in our business - which makes things fun & exciting. Thanks for the comments.
Another side-note. "Grass Fed" shouldn't be an excuse for starving cattle. A mother called prior to a junior show and wanted a seperate class for their steer because they only had "grass fed" cattle and sold "grass fed" beef. I explained that all the steers show by weight. She didn't like that, so the kids only signed up for showmanship. The animals were pathetic - and I don't think they had a clue how poorly they looked.