Calving ease bulls

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I don't understand the need to go outside your normal breed or breeds to achieve calving ease. To me, either you are raising totally the wrong breed for your management/environment or after years of trying to breed to "super" ce bulls, you are developing heifers that are too small.
Right up front - I am not bashing any breeds. There is a purpose for all breeds (well, some people THINK there is).
I hear people comment about using a LH or mini or lowline to breed to their heifers for CE. To me, that is going backwards. I think heifers should be "expected" to breed at a young age & calve unassisted, bred to a bull of the same breed, if I have done my job. Or a different breed if you are purposely crossbreeding. But, to use a bull that is going to give you a little calf that is never going to get as heavy as the dam, confuseses me.
To me, it's difficult enough for a heifer to "pay her own way", but when you don't give her a chance to raise you a growthy calf, you're going to go in the hole financially.
I know, I know, a small live calf is worth more than a large dead calf. But, I breed Simmental cattle and I cannot remember the last time we lost a calf from dystocia. It's hard enough to remember having a difficult pull - other than tangled up messes (TWINS for example). I am not saying we have not had some assists - but, they were probably not "necessary" to get a live calf out - just helps the dam come back into heat sooner if she doesn't have to work so hard.
If you do your homework and raise out your heifers, and breed to CE bulls with normal growth for your breed, you should be fine and the heifer should make you money even with a steer calf.
What am I missing?

Out of curiosity, I just checked my last 2 years calf crop report. Out of a little under 100 head, we had 2 easy hand pulls (heifers) and 1 easy hand pull set of twins (after adjusting positions).

 

[ChrisB]

Since I mentioned it in another post I am assuming that is what brought about the question. First let me say that I agree with your post. For me personally I haven't gone outside my usual breed (angus) but have considered using one of the more "exotic" breeds for smaller calves. Mostly the thought stems from a couple bad years probably 14-15 years ago. But I work a full time job off the farm and what may have been an easy pull at 8:00 in the morning can turn into a more severe problem by the time I get home. Also I grow crops and have other commitments (family, coaching, church, etc.) so even an easy pull can be a major pain.

So anything I can possibly do to eliminate potential problems and things that take up my time and help me sleep better I will consider. But as long as things keep rolling along without major problems I will probably keep using a low BW and high CE angus bull. And although BW and CE are high on the list of desires in a herd bull I don't go extremes on them. But I will on a heifer bull and just won't keep any replacements from the heifers.

That said, I've read where people have been using Lowlines to breed their cows to decrease frame size of the cows. Does anyone know how a calf that is 50% lowline finish out? Would they just be shorter and a bit litter? Or would they be small enough to be discounted?

 

[1wlimo]

With the other comitments that people have as Chris B has so well stated and the mess some people have gotten into with cavling problems why would I not look to a caving ease bull?

And would I not expect also with that bull for my calves to achive the same weaning weight as I was aiming for any way?

Does cavling ease have to mean small calf? or just better shape head etc?

 

[angus9259]

There's something to be said for high accuracy calving ease EPDs when breeding heifers. I hope all of mine are similarly easy calving as well - as do my customers - but I can't reproduce the high accuracy on any herd bull I own no matter how good.

EDIT - sorry - misread the post. I thought it was referring to going outside your own program.

If other breeds carry acceptable calving ease accuracies it doesn't seem like you would have to go outside the breed. One breed should be able to handle their own calves. I'd do what I had to do to give my heifers the greatest chance of success though and that includes going outside the breed if there were ample evidence it would help.

 

[cbcr]

I agree with Jeanne. You are better off to stick with the breed that your heifers are. Using a bull of a different breed on heifers may not always have the desired result. Remember "hybrid vigor", calves can be born bigger too!

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I agree with Jeanne. You are better off to stick with the breed that your heifers are. Using a bull of a different breed on heifers may not always have the desired result. Remember "hybrid vigor", calves can be born bigger too!

it can happen ,, i found it to be more in the third cross. when the birth weights really come on

 

[ALACOWMAN]

There's something to be said for high accuracy calving ease EPDs when breeding heifers. I hope all of mine are similarly easy calving as well - as do my customers - but I can't reproduce the high accuracy on any herd bull I own no matter how good.

EDIT - sorry - misread the post. I thought it was referring to going outside your own program.

If other breeds carry acceptable calving ease accuracies it doesn't seem like you would have to go outside the breed. One breed should be able to handle their own calves. I'd do what I had to do to give my heifers the greatest chance of success though and that includes going outside the breed if there were ample evidence it would help.

do you do pelvic measurement on you'r heifers.???

 

[slick4591]

Does cavling ease have to mean small calf? or just better shape head etc?

When I bought into Piedmontese everyone was telling me that I should cross the heifers with something small so they would have an easier time calving. I scratched my head over this because I'm not in a position to basically breed throw away calves. I hope I did my research well enough as I've ordered fullblood semen on a bull that produces long bodied calves with a smaller than average birth weight for the breed. I'm betting that it'll be easier to birth a 90 pound snake than a 70 lb block.

 

[RD-Sam]

Since I mentioned it in another post I am assuming that is what brought about the question. First let me say that I agree with your post. For me personally I haven't gone outside my usual breed (angus) but have considered using one of the more "exotic" breeds for smaller calves. Mostly the thought stems from a couple bad years probably 14-15 years ago. But I work a full time job off the farm and what may have been an easy pull at 8:00 in the morning can turn into a more severe problem by the time I get home. Also I grow crops and have other commitments (family, coaching, church, etc.) so even an easy pull can be a major pain.

So anything I can possibly do to eliminate potential problems and things that take up my time and help me sleep better I will consider. But as long as things keep rolling along without major problems I will probably keep using a low BW and high CE angus bull. And although BW and CE are high on the list of desires in a herd bull I don't go extremes on them. But I will on a heifer bull and just won't keep any replacements from the heifers.

That said, I've read where people have been using Lowlines to breed their cows to decrease frame size of the cows. Does anyone know how a calf that is 50% lowline finish out? Would they just be shorter and a bit litter? Or would they be small enough to be discounted?

All you have to do is pick a linebred angus bull with good calving ease and a good track record. Don't feed the heifers and make them fat, that just causes the calves to be heavier, fed them after they are born if they need some extra feed. If a heifer can't have a 75 pound or so calf, you should probably get rid of her anyway.

 

[Suzie Q]

I went with a Bazadais bull because they are born small and then after 2 weeks they start growing. Crossing them with a larger cow means they end up larger.

Touchwood. 100% live unassisted calves for 2 years. Touchwood. Touchwood. Touchwood.

 

[wbvs58]

I dont believe there is any guarantee of getting a low BW calf by using a low BW bull, yes the trend is to lower birth weight, but as with introducing any new trait some offspring will throw to the dam some to the sire and some in between. Often a low BW bull gets the blame for a difficult calving when it takes two to tango.
Ken

 

[showing71]

I read somewhere once that 60% of the BW comes from the cow, I can't remember the name of the article or the author (figures).

We do breed our purebred Tarentaise heifers to a low BW, CE Red Angus for their first calf. But, we have Tar cow lines that have power in them, and as a cow, they can push out at 90-100 lb calf no problem, but I don't want that for a heifer. I have yet to find a true CE Tarentaise bull that has semen available for me to use AI, which is why we go the Red Angus route on them. The Angus and Red Angus heifers are bred to a bull in their own breed. I see no reason (at least for my operation, purebred seedstock producer) to not breed the Angus and Red Angus heifers to CE bulls within their own breed, especially with the selection of proven CE bulls available out there for AI.

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

Why I said there was a purpose for every breed was because everyone enjoys raising something different, and everybody should do what they enjoy. As for myself I usually like to stick with the same breed too. But in my commercial herd, I'll mix it up some, allowing more hybird vigor and to get some nice crosses. For example I've had real good luck mixing gelbvieh and simmental. I know that's two Continental Breeds and you could get to large of frames and excessive muscle, but so far mine have been just right and have topped the sale barn every time I sale one. The thing to know is your EPD's and in general just cattle and all people isn't going to be good at it. Therefore we run into trial and error. But once you figure out what works the rewards can be beneficial. The thing to do is not to cross to much that you have 4 or more breeds running through that beast blood. If you do there's to many genes to keep track of, her first calf might be small and the 2nd year it might be large etc... But yeah I've got no problem using the same breed on breeding heifers, I think every breed has it's calving ease sires and I don't have no problem with someone using a different breed but again it's easier to stick with what you know. Therefore if you don't know what your calving ease EPD and BW EPD is that will work for you in a particular different breed, you should stick with the breed you know. Using small breeds on heifers, I don't have a problem with neither. People wouldn't do it if it didn't help there lives out, but again I think all breeds have improved and generated calving ease options that could give the owner a better marketable calf.

 

[Stocker Steve]

My calving ease BA bull threw some pretty big calves this spring, a lot from 98 to 118 pounds :shock: So much for the low birth weight theory. I used to worry about 95# calves but now I am over that.

I don't see the value in the small 50 to 70# calves. They seem more like goat kids and just don't do so well when it is cold or wet.

I think we just need to expect more from the cow. I am willing to do some "serious culling" do make it happen.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In a purebred operation, your heifers are a valuable comodity. They SHOULD represent your best genetics (if you are a breeder and not a propogator (sp?)).
I do not believe in the thought that you should NOT feed your heifers while pregnant (and neither does all the research). Heifers should be fed to stay in BCS of 6 to 6.5 at calving. No, they should not be FAT, but there's a world of difference between being in good BCS & FAT. If you drop down to below a 5, she might have more calving problems than a slightly fat heifer & her calf is liable to have health problems because they may be born weak (weak calf syndrome caused by the dam being too thin).
IMO, if you can't find a CE bull to use on heifers within your breed, then all your bull calves should be castrated.
I breed heifers (and most cows anymore) to CE bulls, but they are also moderate to heavy growth bulls also. I strongly watch the maternal CE on the bulls we use. I don't use a bull on our heifers that I don't use on the cowherd. I don't think it's just in the Simmental breed that we have such good selections. I think most of the breeds have done a superb job of finding those "out-lyers" and have multiplied those genetics (CE with great growth).
If you have a commercial operation, and don't have the ability to watch heifers closely, wouldn't it be more profitable to sell all your heifers & buy back more cows, rather than worry about a seperate bull for heifers? especially if you're "planning" on getting a "throw-away" calf? Time is money. That heifer needs to make you money - not cost you money for another year. Heifers are waaayyyy too expensive to raise, to give up another year of profit. JMHO

 

[vclavin]

When we started out with registered black angus , we had trouble with heifers... not much but enough. We stuck with raising them as we were looking for the low bw and high gain niche. As Jeannie said, why get a throw away calf, there's no reason why you can't get calving ease, growth, and carcass in the 1st calf heifers calf. We do.
We kept record of pelvic scores so we could inprove them and then maintain them. All bulls have that measurement taken as well... it's hereditary and we keep the heifers.
Heifers first calf will be 90% of what she will produce when mature. Add the bulls influence to that + environment. As Simme-Valley said, we also feed our heifers and keep a good condition score on them.
We no long watch the heifers, they have calves on their own same as the cows. we use mainly low birth , high gain bulls with fertility and carcass. It has worked quite well. Yes, we carefully watch the CED and the CEM on those bulls. Depending on cow line, calves are born from 65lbs to 92 lbs on heifers and cows.
Valerie

 

[Stocker Steve]

Do you use a Rice pelivmeter?
What do you consider a cull vs. a keeper measurement?

 

[vclavin]

Do you use a Rice pelivmeter?
What do you consider a cull vs. a keeper measurement?

Vet takes the measurements (don't know the brand of caliper, it's green), heifers must be at least 160 square cm to be able to have a calf with no problems. He said anything below is usually a puller or C section bound.
Valerie

 

[RD-Sam]

I never said the heifers shouldn't be in good condition, I said not to feed them and make them fat.

I just had a black angus heifer weaned a bull calf at 592 pounds, he was 76 pounds at birth, she had him with no problems at all. The sire was a black angus with a CED of 10, CEM of 12, nothing special for WW or YW, and he isn't a bull that everybody flocks to for whatever reason this month. He is consistent however, he is linebred and proven. He also did a way better job of producing a calf than some of the big name sires have done for me.

 

[VanC]

I understand what some of you are saying, but try and look at it from the point of view of the average commercial producer. His goals are different than that of the seedstock and/or show cattle producer.

First of all, he uses live bulls. As of two years ago, only about 10% of beef cattle in the U.S. were bred using AI, and most of that was in the seedstock and club calf sectors. That means he doesn't have access to the proven "curvebenders" that are all but guaranteed to give him calving ease AND good growth. Pounds at weaning are what he's looking for so he's going to use bulls that are likely to give him just that. He doesn't want a cow killer, but he's going to feel more comforatable using those bulls on mature cows. Besides, even if the bulls he uses have excellent CE EPDs (if he uses them), he might be a little wary of using them on heifers until they've proven themselves. As we all know, things don't always play out the way they're supposed to.

If he retains heifers, he expects her to be productive for many years. Not only does he expect it, he needs that to happen to keep his head above water. As has been said, it costs a lot of money to raise a heifer. He doesn't want to take a chance on calving troubles that might lessen her future productivity or, God forbid, kill her. He's looking long term. He's willing to have that one "throwaway calf" (not that there really is such a thing) if it means she will be productive for 10-15 years after that. He doesn't plan on culling her after 5 or 6 years to upgrade his genetics like some seedstock producers do. He needs her to hang around a lot longer than that. That's why he needs to be confident that the bulls he uses on his heifers won't kill them. If that means using bulls of a different breed that's known for throwing smaller calves, then that's what he's going to do. Just sayin'.