Bull with stifle injury

[Stocker Steve]

What is in your custom mixed development ration if you will not feed them DDG or corn?

 

[Lazy M]

I avoid any program that thinks a TMR is the way to bring up bulls and refuse to buy bulls put through "tests". I think both cases push young bulls way too hard and ruin them.

What issues would you expect with a bull that was pushed too hard?

One of the biggest issues I have run into is bulls being pushed on DDG. I know I'm gonna catch some flack for this, but I do not and will not ever again feed my cattle DDG. In my experience, it runs there ability to convert forage. Before anyone jumps me, No I do not have any studies or research to back this up. Just years of pushing show steers and young bulls for fast gain and quick development. I have found that they do well on DDG for so long, then can't survive on pasture or just good hay through the winter. I also avoid ones pushed on corn. As others have pointed out, it causes fat deposits in the most unhelpful of places! I have not seen the stress on joints and feet others mentioned with pushing young stock, but I also haven't kept any of the ones I bought that had been pushed around long enough to really find out. In most of these cases, they weed themselves out the first winter.

I currently have 5 yearling (just yearling) bulls in development. They are all paternal brothers. One is red Angus X black Angus, one is a black Limflex and 3 are red Limflex. They are all slightly different in there phenotype and performance (100% intended). They were pulled of the cows a touch late (we had a massive snow storm in the middle of April and I fed the last hay on June 1!). They we put on a custom developer ration through the summer, and are now on pasture with about 5 pounds of cracked corn per head bucket fed daily (they are each about 1000 pounds). They will be one good hay through the winter, and corn supplement as necessary to maintain about a 6 BCS. Come spring (and a minimum of 60 days before BSEs are done), they will get no more feed for the rest of their days. At that point, if they can't make it on good hay/ pasture, they do not stay in my program! This has worked for me for several years now, to ensure our Limousin and Angus bulls grow well, but also have some longevity.

I'd love to see pics of these bulls. I have 2 from last fall that I've been developing similarly. I do feed the mature bulls around 5 lbs/hd feed during their off season. Not enough to get them fat but enough to keep them in real good condition and ready to work at turn out.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

StockerSteve, I never said they don't get grain as youngsters, quite the opposite in fact. My developer ration is grain based. No DDG in it. It is relatively low fat, and modest in protein. They are then put on supplemental corn until they have good grass at 1 to 1 1/2 years old (depending if they are fall or spring born). Because of limited availability of grazing forage, they must get some grain to grow at all. I want them to reach potential, without ruining them. I just sent out a 2 1/2 year old bull on his 2nd herd of this summer. He has been working for his supper and crossed the scale at 2052 and in great shape.

Lazy M, I will try to find some. They are just getting brought in to clip and be broke to lead the last couple of days.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

Lazy M, here's what I had handy on my phone. These are from about a month, month and a half ago. I wish I had more/ better pictures, I think they are a neat group. *Note, the bull in the foreground in second picture is 8 1/2, not one of the yearlings!

 

[Lazy M]

They look good. Thanks for posting

 

[TCRanch]

Zero improvement so hauled him to the sale barn with my culls this week. Ouch! .70 per lb. That's some expensive burger.

 

[Nesikep]

that sucks!

 

[Stocker Steve]

Mine improved quite a bit, but did not seem to have any interest in girls. Got 82 cents about a month ago.

Do these kind of injuries seem more common with larger bulls?

 

[bird dog]

"Do these kind of injuries seem more common with larger bulls?"

I think its more in the Genetics. Vet said some breeds are getting like pure bred dogs with to much in breeding.

I don't know how much size has to do with it but I would bet a lot. I know wet conditions make things more problematic.

 

[TCRanch]

He was only 3 years old, kind of a tall, randy dude and weighed 1830 lbs. (as opposed to one of my cull cows that tipped the scales at 1930 :shock: ). At the time of the injury the pasture was dry but it's very rocky. Genetics? Maybe. His sire was Mitty In Focus.

 

[TCRanch]

Lots of threads on injured bulls. Lots of threads on bulls with attitude. Lots of threads on bulls fighting...
What is an average productive life for a breeding bull in a multi sire pasture?

Steve I will be watching the replies to your question.

We sold some 10-11 y/o bulls in the last 3 years. Used to run 2 bulls together. On the big ranches I'e been around in rough semi arid country it was 8-10 years. Now some PB breeders are telling me that a commercial breeder should only expect 6 years. And even if he is still sound he should be sold then in order to turn generations over faster. The 8-20 is still my goal.

One of my friends had her bulls tested last April, turned them out in May. Her fave bull was 10 years old but passed the BSE with flying colors. She pulled him from the main herd this year & put him in a smaller pasture they lease with 13 cow/calf pairs. Checked occasionally but everything seemed fine. Went to load/bring back to the ranch last Friday and 2 cows were in standing heat. Bull was just laying around. Took a hard look at the rest of the herd & none of them really look bred. They preg check at the end of Nov so she'll know for sure but the bull got a trailer ride to this week's sale.

Not my herd, not my bull, can't judge, but this could be a costly mistake.

 

[elkwc]

Lots of threads on injured bulls. Lots of threads on bulls with attitude. Lots of threads on bulls fighting...
What is an average productive life for a breeding bull in a multi sire pasture?

Steve I will be watching the replies to your question.

We sold some 10-11 y/o bulls in the last 3 years. Used to run 2 bulls together. On the big ranches I'e been around in rough semi arid country it was 8-10 years. Now some PB breeders are telling me that a commercial breeder should only expect 6 years. And even if he is still sound he should be sold then in order to turn generations over faster. The 8-20 is still my goal.

One of my friends had her bulls tested last April, turned them out in May. Her fave bull was 10 years old but passed the BSE with flying colors. She pulled him from the main herd this year & put him in a smaller pasture they lease with 13 cow/calf pairs. Checked occasionally but everything seemed fine. Went to load/bring back to the ranch last Friday and 2 cows were in standing heat. Bull was just laying around. Took a hard look at the rest of the herd & none of them really look bred. They preg check at the end of Nov so she'll know for sure but the bull got a trailer ride to this week's sale.

Not my herd, not my bull, can't judge, but this could be a costly mistake.

I try to pay attention to the cows everytime I'm around but has been hard till now with only being around on weekends. I'm retiring in early Dec and then will be around more. We are going to test an 8 y/o bull that has done well to this point and bred a lot of cows this year. She has always left bulls in year round. I pulled all but him last year and plan to start pulling all. Have noticed a cow in heat the last few times I've been to that pasture. Have had some fall babies so maybe it is just them but don't have a good feeling about him. We were planning to move him in late summer or early fall next year anyway. He was a home raised bull. I try to watch older bulls a little more but we have had more issues with the younger bulls we've bought making it to 5-6 years of age than we have the bulls we've raised or the older bulls bought 10 years ago.

Saw two bulls recently one a 4 y/o and the other a 2 y/o that will be headed to the sale because of structural issues. Both of these bulls cost a fair sum of money and the one only lasted one breeding season. Why I find it hard to buy much for a yearling or 2 y/o. Can be a very costly experience.

 

[snoopdog]

Just about a week ago, mine got injured, tore up a brand new 6 wire fence. I did see some improvement yesterday, but by the time he walked from the cubes in the corral to the hay, it didn't look good. He'll be some expensive burger too, hopefully he's already done his job for the year, that'll help some if he doesn't improve.

 

[TCRanch]

Just about a week ago, mine got injured, tore up a brand new 6 wire fence. I did see some improvement yesterday, but by the time he walked from the cubes in the corral to the hay, it didn't look good. He'll be some expensive burger too, hopefully he's already done his job for the year, that'll help some if he doesn't improve.

Hate to hear that & hopefully he improves but if it's a stifle I'm not optimistic.
My friend that sold her bull got $.45 per pound & was pretty bummed but I pointed out I'd rather get $.45 for an 11 year old bull that's more than paid for himself than $.70 for a 3 year old.

 

[Ebenezer]

"Do these kind of injuries seem more common with larger bulls?"

I think its more in the Genetics. Vet said some breeds are getting like pure bred dogs with to much in breeding.

I don't know how much size has to do with it but I would bet a lot. I know wet conditions make things more problematic.

Post legged and improper leg and skeletal angles set a bull up for the issue.

Some can be environmental: other bulls, wet or icy ground, an unknown.

An overweight bull, a young bull that has been pushed to high weights too soon (like test stations) a bull that has not been allowed ample exercise during the off season and the list could go on for lack of fitness are going to be in the high failure rates. But if you go back to pictures of great bulls in the late '70's and early '80's you see post legged animals with a lot of leg were fashionable. Man, you talk about stifle injuries. The feet were probably better then because the straight legs rotated the foot angles to a more proper setting. So today's foot problems, to me, stem from folks trying to correct too much height and too much post legged conditions without also culling the bad feet. Jut an opinion.

Today, if you select bulls for the proper structure before you look at herd prefixes, EPDs, genetic mumbo gumbo, pedigree or breeder names: proper feet, proper stride, proper development, straight topline, proper leg angles, you will save yourself a lot of trips, time and money as so many name and number cattle today are really sorry specimens and should have been culled generations ago. Throw in disposition to keep you safe, too.

 

[snoopdog]

Mine was due to fighting with the neighbor bull, hence the fence, got him up so he doesn't have to walk for feed and water. We'll see.

 

[snoopdog]

Let the ole boy back out yesterday, and I guess he was happy about it, crowhopped about 20 yards. I am sooo glad he got better!

 

[gitnby]

good luck....hope he is well

 

[greybeard]

good luck....hope he is well

If he started breeding at 2 yrs in 2018, he's 7 yrs old now...

 

[TCRanch]

Wow, blast from the past. And FYI, I still haven't kept a bull longer than 6 years. Sold Dick in 2019 after he didn't pass his BSE and bought Woody & Willy. Sold Johnson private treaty in Dec of '20 and bought Tallywacker last May. Woody & Willy are both 5 and still doing great. Guess I'll find out in March when I take them in.