Hello every one I no most of you are very experience in breeding cattle and I bet seen it all and may have even made your mistake along the way so I am looking for your most honest thought on this. I was just couriers on your thoughts on breeding your bull back to his mom and half sister. I no the obvious like why would you what to do that when there are so many bull out there, I just was wondering if that would just be a big mistake and a waist of time??.
Breeding back to mom??
- Thread starter M.Sarria
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backhoeboogie
Well-known member
peg4x4":2qr79jey said:
Don't do it. There's nothing to gain.
Peg, I don't see how anyone could produce any line in this type of breeding. How can you possibly call it line breeding?
grannysoo
Well-known member
Search line breeding on the forum and you'll find lost of posts and opinions about the subject.
The opinions here range from it being good to it being incest...
Personally, I don't do it.
The opinions here range from it being good to it being incest...
Personally, I don't do it.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
grannysoo":k4427mnz said:
Then let me ask you too. How can you get a line in this method of breeding? Are you trying to get a cow from a line? Why not just go back to the bull and cow that produced the cow you are trying to replicate? Even with embryo extraction, I don't see how you can produce a line trying to replicate this way.
No way can anyone call this line breeding. There is no line and a line cannot be produced in this fashion.
hrbelgians
Well-known member
I did it, (mother,sisters and all) however i'm sure it was dumb luck!!?? I got the best calves we ever had, however am sorta scared to try again! Not sure I would encourage it?
highvoltagecattleco
Well-known member
Being from SW-WA if you need a good bull. PM me and I'll sell you one or find one. You could either end up with a train wreck (inbreeding) or duplicate the strengths of your animals (line breeding). I wouldn't suggest it. Typically you mate strengths and weakness.
greenwillowhereford II
Well-known member
Aero":13c1q4xl said:
You've probably admired the consistent bulls that some outfit raises, not realizing they were line-bred. It's about developing cattle with a set of desirable traits, and then intensifying those traits while culling out the bad ones. It's about prepotency, the ability of an animal to consistently stamp its progeny in its likeness.
Carnivore
Well-known member
Manny:
Given the fact you have shorthorns, they may be carriers of the gene that produces this birth defect in Shorthorn cattle:
Tibial hemimelia
By breeding back a shorthorn bull to his mommy, you might end up in real trouble, (I believe I had this problem a couple years ago because of inbreeding).
Do a search on this genetic disease, and you will understand. BTW, check your private messages...
Given the fact you have shorthorns, they may be carriers of the gene that produces this birth defect in Shorthorn cattle:
Tibial hemimelia
By breeding back a shorthorn bull to his mommy, you might end up in real trouble, (I believe I had this problem a couple years ago because of inbreeding).
Do a search on this genetic disease, and you will understand. BTW, check your private messages...
M.Sarria":23nl7awh said:
1/2 sister, maybe depending on what both have to bring to the table - Mom, no way. That is just too close. Mother/son and father/daughter breedings tend to not work worth a flip - all your doing is accentuating the bad genes by duplicating them.
Ryder
Well-known member
Not without a very good reason.
novatech
Well-known member
Half brither to half sister is exact one cross used in linebreeding but only with a pair as dun said "perfect".backhoeboogie":3b8o83vh said:
Carnivore":1oj0yp3q said:
that looks like the best reason to linebreed. if you have a carrier (or more) in your herd, wouldnt you want to know now instead of putting that gene into your whole heard.
you did not have this problem because of linebreeding; you had a problem and linebreeding showed it to you.
In breeding is any form of breeding that increases the likelihood of an animal being homozygous (having two identical genes as oposed to heterozygous different genes) for the same trait, as compared to an animal bred from unrelated parents.
Being homozygous for a trait can be good or bad, depending on the trait in question. If the trait is desired (say a particular color) then it may be good. Because a homozygous animal will always pass on the gene for the trait in question. In other words it will breed true. But some traits are bad. If you the animal is homozygous for a bad trait, it will always pass on the gene for the bad trait to it's offspring. Some traits are so bad that if an animal is homozygous for it, the animal will be sick or die.
Line breeding is inbreeding to "set" traits, so as to produce more consistant offspring. In other words, seeking to produce animals that are homozygous, and thus more likely to produce offspring that look like their parents. A "perfect" line bred animal would theoretically be homozygous for every trait, thus when bred to another "perfect" line bred animal of the same line, would result in a clone of the parents.
The conventional wisdom with line breeding is breed only ideal animals such that the offspring contain no more than 50% of the genetic material of a given animal. Since an animal is 50% from each parent, breedng two half siblings works - they end up with 50% of the genetic material from the shared ancester.
A x B -> C (50% A, 50% B)
B x D -> E (50% B, 50% D)
C x E -> F (50% C, 50% E = 50%B, 25%A, 25%D)
But a mother son cross would result in an animal that shares 75% of its genetics with its mother.
A x B -> C (50% A, 50% B)
B x C-> E (50% B, 50% C = 75%B, 25%A)
So if you have an exceptional animals that are half siblings, you might be justified in putting them together to try and generate similar offspring. But be prepared to cull anything that doesn't come out excellent.
Hope this helps.
Being homozygous for a trait can be good or bad, depending on the trait in question. If the trait is desired (say a particular color) then it may be good. Because a homozygous animal will always pass on the gene for the trait in question. In other words it will breed true. But some traits are bad. If you the animal is homozygous for a bad trait, it will always pass on the gene for the bad trait to it's offspring. Some traits are so bad that if an animal is homozygous for it, the animal will be sick or die.
Line breeding is inbreeding to "set" traits, so as to produce more consistant offspring. In other words, seeking to produce animals that are homozygous, and thus more likely to produce offspring that look like their parents. A "perfect" line bred animal would theoretically be homozygous for every trait, thus when bred to another "perfect" line bred animal of the same line, would result in a clone of the parents.
The conventional wisdom with line breeding is breed only ideal animals such that the offspring contain no more than 50% of the genetic material of a given animal. Since an animal is 50% from each parent, breedng two half siblings works - they end up with 50% of the genetic material from the shared ancester.
A x B -> C (50% A, 50% B)
B x D -> E (50% B, 50% D)
C x E -> F (50% C, 50% E = 50%B, 25%A, 25%D)
But a mother son cross would result in an animal that shares 75% of its genetics with its mother.
A x B -> C (50% A, 50% B)
B x C-> E (50% B, 50% C = 75%B, 25%A)
So if you have an exceptional animals that are half siblings, you might be justified in putting them together to try and generate similar offspring. But be prepared to cull anything that doesn't come out excellent.
Hope this helps.
to answer your original question: if this isnt a planned breeding to concentrate a particular animal's influence, it should be discouraged. If it is for convenience, it should be discouraged. If you are selling by the pound this is not the direction you want to go.
If you want to tidy up the gene pool a little, this is a good start.
the whole 50% of one animal's blood seems pretty arbitrary and is based on religion more than science. It all comes down to how much work and how many calves you are willing to invest.
If you want to tidy up the gene pool a little, this is a good start.
the whole 50% of one animal's blood seems pretty arbitrary and is based on religion more than science. It all comes down to how much work and how many calves you are willing to invest.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
Check Karin's link in her signature to info in the blog on this subject. It is pretty detailed.
