Breeding back to mom??

[Aero]

I did it, (mother,sisters and all) however i'm sure it was dumb luck!!?? I got the best calves we ever had, however am sorta scared to try again! Not sure I would encourage it?

could you give us a few more specifics? what animals, how many, how good were the parents?

 

[KMacGinley]

I did it, (mother,sisters and all) however i'm sure it was dumb luck!!?? I got the best calves we ever had, however am sorta scared to try again! Not sure I would encourage it?

Ya,..........but that's Indiana....... :lol: :lol:

Owwwww stop it. That would be true south of 40.

Sarria: Are you asking this because you are too cheap to buy a bull? Or too poor a manager to cut a calf to stop him from breeding his relatives? I figure it is one or the other.

 

[KNERSIE]

Don't do it. There's nothing to gain.

you might want to try to learn a little about something before you show the world how little you understand something.

Matt,

Do you know where more information is available on line breeding? I am interested in something more practical and in more detail than "The Basis of Linebreeding"

 

[Aero]

Matt,

Do you know where more information is available on line breeding? I am interested in something more practical and in more detail than "The Basis of Linebreeding"

I spent 2 days with Larry Leonhardt and only touched the surface. He made a 8-12 page booklet that explained some pretty good big picture stuff. I dont think it's available in electronic format yet.

I did not find that book very informative either. (Or I completely missed something.)

Everything I find that explains anything in depth about linebreeding is on the subject of horticultural genetics. It seems like I look through some pretty big texts and only find little bits of info.
I haven't found any particular (print) resource that is worth paying for yet.

Maybe it's not that complicated, it only takes a long term commitment to painfully slow progress...?

 

[M.Sarria]

Hello every one who reply to my post thanks for all your reply's and grate information on this matter after reading and researching this I will be selling my 1/2 shorthorn 1/2 red angus bull calf I new I can count on this site for good feed back. Thanks again Manny.

 

[Aero]

Hello every one who reply to my post thanks for all your reply's and grate information on this matter after reading and researching this I will be selling my 1/2 shorthorn 1/2 red angus bull calf I new I can count on this site for good feed back. Thanks again Manny.

if i would have known it was an F1, this thread would have been much shorter...

 

[ALX.]

Don't do it. There's nothing to gain.

you might want to try to learn a little about something before you show the world how little you understand something.

Why would he stop posting trash just because he has no knowledge now, after years of getting away with it??

Unless you really know what you are doing with your herd, genetic diversity and moderation are good words to keep in mind.

That being said, I've had some incestuous crackerjacks as well!

 

[BAGTIC]

Manny:

Given the fact you have shorthorns, they may be carriers of the gene that produces this birth defect in Shorthorn cattle:

Tibial hemimelia

By breeding back a shorthorn bull to his mommy, you might end up in real trouble, (I believe I had this problem a couple years ago because of inbreeding).

Do a search on this genetic disease, and you will understand. BTW, check your private messages...

Only if the line already carries the disorder. Inbreeding does not cause genetic defects. It reveals existing defects. If they are not revealed how do you expect to ever eliminate them from the gene pool?

 

[novatech]

Don't do it. There's nothing to gain.

you might want to try to learn a little about something before you show the world how little you understand something.

Why would he stop posting trash just because he has no knowledge now, after years of getting away with it??

Unless you really know what you are doing with your herd, genetic diversity and moderation are good words to keep in mind.

That being said, I've had some incestuous crackerjacks as well!

Seems as though some people have a lot to learn about how they talk about or to certain highly respected people on these boards. The way thay talk may show a certain lack of intelegence on their part.

 

[ALX.]

Seems as though some people have a lot to learn about how they talk about or to certain highly respected people on these boards. The way thay talk may show a certain lack of intelegence on their part.

:lol:

 

[donnaIL]

ArmyDoc

Line breeding is inbreeding to "set" traits, so as to produce more consistant offspring. In other words, seeking to produce animals that are homozygous, and thus more likely to produce offspring that look like their parents. A "perfect" line bred animal would theoretically be homozygous for every trait, thus when bred to another "perfect" line bred animal of the same line, would result in a clone of the parents.


But a mother son cross would result in an animal that shares 75% of its genetics with its mother.

A x B -> C (50% A, 50% B)
B x C-> E (50% B, 50% C = 75%B, 25%A)

I have bred a son to mother. Because we like the cow so much..and she has had 5 bulls. We want this cow to be our foundation...so yes she is great. And the bull we chose, is exceptional (the other 4 have made great beef), he is great... The calves are the best ever, the only thing held against them would be color (they are not black)...doesn't matter because those we don't keep will make great sides of beef.

It does not take a rocket scientist to raise beef. Alot of you folks are just too critical.. a little "chill" would be welcomed. JMO donna

 

[grannysoo]

It does not take a rocket scientist to raise beef. Alot of you folks are just too critical.. a little "chill" would be welcomed. JMO donna

Perhaps a lot of folks are not too critical, just have strong opinions. Some love inbreeding, some hate it. Everyone has really strong opinions on it, so when a thread like this comes up, you see a lot of strong debate on it for and against.

As stated in an earlier post, I don't do it, but some appear to be successful with it....

 

[phillse]

I do a fair amount of linebreeding, but personally find mother x son or father x daughter a little too close.

I prefer 1/2 sibling matings or Grandfather to granddaughter or Grandmother to grandson. But the animals used have to be real good for me to linebreed that close.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Don't do it. There's nothing to gain.

you might want to try to learn a little about something before you show the world how little you understand something.

Why would he stop posting trash just because he has no knowledge now, after years of getting away with it??

Unless you really know what you are doing with your herd, genetic diversity and moderation are good words to keep in mind.

That being said, I've had some incestuous crackerjacks as well!

Well then, you two geniuses tell me what's to be gained here. I am all ears in regards to crossing this cross back to his dam.

 

[ArmyDoc]

ArmyDoc

Line breeding is inbreeding to "set" traits, so as to produce more consistant offspring. In other words, seeking to produce animals that are homozygous, and thus more likely to produce offspring that look like their parents. A "perfect" line bred animal would theoretically be homozygous for every trait, thus when bred to another "perfect" line bred animal of the same line, would result in a clone of the parents.


But a mother son cross would result in an animal that shares 75% of its genetics with its mother.

A x B -> C (50% A, 50% B)
B x C-> E (50% B, 50% C = 75%B, 25%A)

I have bred a son to mother. Because we like the cow so much..and she has had 5 bulls. We want this cow to be our foundation...so yes she is great. And the bull we chose, is exceptional (the other 4 have made great beef), he is great... The calves are the best ever, the only thing held against them would be color (they are not black)...doesn't matter because those we don't keep will make great sides of beef.

It does not take a rocket scientist to raise beef. Alot of you folks are just too critical.. a little "chill" would be welcomed. JMO donna

If you are going to go to the trouble of quoting me, at least quote the whole thing. What I said was

ArmyDoc
The conventional wisdom with line breeding is breed only ideal animals such that the offspring contain no more than 50% of the genetic material of a given animal.

And I didn't say you couldn't cross a mother to a son and get good results. I said that it would violate "conventional wisdom" because it results in the percentage of her genetic material in the offspring being 75%.

Whether that is a good thing or not is dependent on you point of view... and probably even more dependent on your results. All I was just trying to do was give a better explanation of why some people don't think it's a good idea than "this is bad, don't do it".

 

[usernametaken]

I bred a sire/daughter litter once in dogs by accident. I was quite worried about it and spoke to my vet at length.

According to my Vet most likely the pups would be ok. Here's where it gets a little weird. According to the vet it is the NEXT generation I needed to worry about. Something about after concentrating all those genes, if I then bred to an outcross it was very likely to bring out the defective genes.
Sold the litter on a spay/neuter only basis. They have been very nice dogs.

ARMY DOC I would be interested in your opinion about the vet's advice. I know some do not agree with what he told me, but I have a lot of faith in him, so followed his advice.

Interesting part was the sire was already extremely linebred. That old breeder he came from crossed 1/2 brothers and sisters and parents and grandparents from the 1960's forward. What I think he did was literally clean the line out. This sire has never thrown a pup with a genetic defect. He is extremely predictable in the traits that he throws and he dominates in an outcross. There is certainly value in that, as long as he is a good one, which he is.

One of the big decisions I think when you linebreed is are you willing to cull what doesn't come out so well ?

Melissa

 

[BAGTIC]

Some vets should stick to pushing pills and stay out of things they don't understand.

 

[KMacGinley]

I agree with that totally, that was a bunch of nonsense.

 

[ArmyDoc]

I bred a sire/daughter litter once in dogs by accident. I was quite worried about it and spoke to my vet at length.

According to my Vet most likely the pups would be ok. Here's where it gets a little weird. According to the vet it is the NEXT generation I needed to worry about. Something about after concentrating all those genes, if I then bred to an outcross it was very likely to bring out the defective genes.
Sold the litter on a spay/neuter only basis. They have been very nice dogs.

ARMY DOC I would be interested in your opinion about the vet's advice. I know some do not agree with what he told me, but I have a lot of faith in him, so followed his advice.

Interesting part was the sire was already extremely linebred. That old breeder he came from crossed 1/2 brothers and sisters and parents and grandparents from the 1960's forward. What I think he did was literally clean the line out. This sire has never thrown a pup with a genetic defect. He is extremely predictable in the traits that he throws and he dominates in an outcross. There is certainly value in that, as long as he is a good one, which he is.

One of the big decisions I think when you linebreed is are you willing to cull what doesn't come out so well ?

Melissa

The vets advice doesn't make any sense to me either. An inbred / linebred animal is by definition one that statistically will have a higher percentage homozygous genes than that of the general population. If this inidvidual does not have any problems, the breeding it to another animal from the general population will result in it's offspring having a lower percentage of homozygous genes.

You can demonstrate this yourself using a program like pedigree viewer. If you create a line bred pedigree, the Inbreeding Coefficient (IC) continues to rise, but if you out cross to an unrelated individual, that ofsprings IC drops to zero again.

I think the problem is more likely to happen the longer you continue the inbreeding/linebreeding process. This has been done with laboratory rats. Breeding sire to daughter, to grand daughter to great grand daughter and so on. What happens is that over time vigor and fertility drops. Generally after 8 or 9 generations the number of offspring in each litter drops to the point where the line can't be continued, and dies out.

All of this merely the flip side of hybrid vigor. Just as you get hybrid vigor by outcrossing, you get a gradual decrease in "vigor" by inbreeding. The difference is that the decrease in vigor is gradual with inbreeding - because the IC changes slowly with inbreeding, but rapidly with outcrossing, I presume. But because the decrease in vigor is slow, you may be able to compensate for it by sellection and rigorus culling.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Usernametaken, Do you perhaps think the advice given was in reference to crossing a sire back to a daughter and then crossing the same sire back to the resulting grandaughter?