Brahman x Brown Syiss/Braunvieh

[Ky hills]

Black Herefords are real Herefords. They can be as high as 63/64ths Hereford...about as much Hereford as a black simmental is simmental. Charolais, Simmental and a few other continental breed associations with "breed up" programs, registered these part breeds. Hereford Association does not, so the breeders created a new association. The advantage of a Black Hereford over a red Hereford, is the black calves. The advantage of the black Hereford over the Angus, is the well-documented maximum heterosis in the Hereford x Brahma cross, which is a little more than Angus. Seems like from the chart, Hereford was #1 and Angus #3 as far as hybrid vigor crossed with Brahma.

Honestly, American Herefords and Angus both have probably had other breeds introduced in secretly over the years even though they have closed herdbooks.
Where most of the difference is in my opinion, is that “Black Hereford” is still kind of a novelty breed. The quality or lack there of the Angus and Hereford components used in its development is a major factor with them.
Charolais and Simmentals are on a whole nother level as far as growth.

 

[Ky hills]

He wasn't saying the Jer x Brah cows were black. he was saying they throw 100% black calves when bred to angus.

Maybe so, if so “sorry, my bad”.
“Other question does Hereford over Brown Swiss yield a dark calf like Hereford over Holstein.”
I did not understand that from the above statement,

 

[Warren Allison]

Honestly, American Herefords and Angus both have probably had other breeds introduced in secretly over the years even though they have closed herdbooks.
Where most of the difference is in my opinion, is that “Black Hereford” is still kind of a novelty breed. The quality or lack there of the Angus and Hereford components used in its development is a major factor with them.
Charolais and Simmentals are on a whole nother level as far as growth.

Ok, so they took world champion Angus semen, and world champion Hereford semen, to breed registered Hereford and registered angus bulls to. There isn't a top Hereford sire anywhere, that you can not find a Black Hereford with that bloodline. Same with the Angus side as well. What hereford and angus bloodlines are you finding on BH registration papers, that you don't see in registered Hereford and registered angus papers?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Black Herefords are real Herefords. They can be as high as 63/64ths Hereford...about as much Hereford as a black simmental is simmental. Charolais, Simmental and a few other continental breed associations with "breed up" programs, registered these part breeds. Hereford Association does not, so the breeders created a new association. The advantage of a Black Hereford over a red Hereford, is the black calves. The advantage of the black Hereford over the Angus, is the well-documented maximum heterosis in the Hereford x Brahma cross, which is a little more than Angus. Seems like from the chart, Hereford was #1 and Angus #3 as far as hybrid vigor crossed with Brahma.

It’s still in the Angus septic tank and that DNA is always going to be there. So be like Coke Cola and be the real thing.

 

[Warren Allison]

Maybe so, if so “sorry, my bad”.
“Other question does Hereford over Brown Swiss yield a dark calf like Hereford over Holstein.”
I did not understand that from the above statement,

I might have misread, too. I thought you asked "If the Brahman component makes the Jersey cross black, than it should do the same with the Brown Swiss." I was saying the Brahma component has nothing to do with either cross being black, because they are not. They tend to be Jeresy colored or Brown Siss colores. Caustic was saying they will always have black calves bred to a black Angus bull.

 

[Warren Allison]

How much picked up as soon as you get them weaned? Your area does have fescue doesn't it? Your less than 4 hours from me and I can handle that.

I got to thinking about two 1/2 Brahma heifers I have. They were 14 or 15 mos old when I got them end of April. They lived on Fescue all of their lives till the last 5 mos. Would it work for them to go back on it? Right now they are eating kudzu, honeysuckle, Johnson grass, broom sage and our food plots! 1 is Brah x Chianina, both registered parents and she is white. Other is Brah x ChiAngus and she is black, looks like a giant Brangus. Draw back is they most likely got bred by a Corriente bull in May or June. I didn;t mean for that to happen, I just got in the hospital right after I got them, and Scott put the bull in mid-May like we usually did in the past. Would they work for you?

 

[Warren Allison]

I got to thinking about two 1/2 Brahma heifers I have. They were 14 or 15 mos old when I got them end of April. They lived on Fescue all of their lives till the last 5 mos. Would it work for them to go back on it? Right now they are eating kudzu, honeysuckle, Johnson grass, broom sage and our food plots! 1 is Brah x Chianina, both registered parents and she is white. Other is Brah x ChiAngus and she is black, looks like a giant Brangus. Draw back is they most likely got bred by a Corriente bull in May or June. I didn;t mean for that to happen, I just got in the hospital right after I got them, and Scott put the bull in mid-May like we usually did in the past. Would they work for you?

Edited to add: I may be wrong about the Brahma dams being registered. The man I got them from has a herd of pb grey Brahma cows, but I am not sure he keeps the papers up on those cows.

 

[Rmc]

Black Herefords are real Herefords. They can be as high as 63/64ths Hereford...about as much Hereford as a black simmental is simmental.

If that is the case why doesnt the black Hereford association promote the foundation herford bulls used in the creation of the breed? In fact they do the opposite and hide the foundation herford bulls of the breed.
That’s a little bit odd isn’t it?
Oh maybe it’s because many of the foundation animals where MSUD carriers. What other genetic mutations occurred at the same time as msud very rarely if ever do genes mutations occur on a single gene. Must often they occur and effect multiple genes and traits.

 

[Ky hills]

Ok, so they took world champion Angus semen, and world champion Hereford semen, to breed registered Hereford and registered angus bulls to. There isn't a top Hereford sire anywhere, that you can not find a Black Hereford with that bloodline. Same with the Angus side as well. What hereford and angus bloodlines are you finding on BH registration papers, that you don't see in registered Hereford and registered angus papers?

I’ve never had an inclination to look at a black Hereford pedigree. Honestly I don’t care much about the hype of the champion Angus or Hereford pedigrees either.
What I’m sayin is I’m more concerned about actual performance, reproductive quality traits in the animal more so than breed or color, because quite frankly the hyped up best bulls of the month Angus and Hereford that most people use have been highly disappointing to me.

 

[Ky hills]

I might have misread, too. I thought you asked "If the Brahman component makes the Jersey cross black, than it should do the same with the Brown Swiss." I was saying the Brahma component has nothing to do with either cross being black, because they are not. They tend to be Jeresy colored or Brown Siss colores. Caustic was saying they will always have black calves bred to a black Angus bull.

I think we all confused by now, I stay that way so it nothing new to me😂.
When I responded about that I was responding about the first cross between a Hereford and a Brown Swiss, and comparing it to the cross between a Hereford x Jersey. I’ve had several Hereford x Jersey cows and bred them to Angus bulls for black calves so I’m familiar with that.

 

[kenny thomas]

That place is up in Banks or Habersham county, Kenny. 2 or 3 hours east for me pulling a trailer. But yes, they are raised on fescue up there for sure. Before transportation costs, they would be $700 for anyone who picked them up. I know you have been hunting some heifers like this. You can get as many as you want, if you don't want all of them.

That's closer to me than you are. I'm through there often.

 

[Warren Allison]

If that is the case why doesnt the black Hereford association promote the foundation herford bulls used in the creation of the breed? In fact they do the opposite and hide the foundation herford bulls of the breed.
That’s a little bit odd isn’t it?
Oh maybe it’s because many of the foundation animals where MSUD carriers. What other genetic mutations occurred at the same time as msud very rarely if ever do genes mutations occur on a single gene. Must often they occur and effect multiple genes and traits.

Like any other breed association be it cattle or horses, the sire and dam names and usually 4-or 5 generations going back are recorded on the registration papers. As far as promoting bloodlines?!!! I have NEVER seen an association promote ANY of their members" bulls, stallions, etc. That is up to the owners of the animals.

 

[Warren Allison]

I’ve never had an inclination to look at a black Hereford pedigree. Honestly I don’t care much about the hype of the champion Angus or Hereford pedigrees either.
What I’m sayin is I’m more concerned about actual performance, reproductive quality traits in the animal more so than breed or color, because quite frankly the hyped up best bulls of the month Angus and Hereford that most people use have been highly disappointing to me.

I hear what you are saying, KY. The point I am making is that there is NO Hereford sire out there, that has a caveat to the contract to buy semen, that says you can't use it on Black Hereford females. There are no registered Hereford cows or heifers, sold at production sales with a stipulation that they can not be bred to Black Hereford bulls. There are no eggs flushed from top Hereford cows that you can buy, that has a provision preventing fertilization with Black Hereford semen. So there is no such thing as red Hereford having better traits or better genetics than Black Hereford, as they both have the same Hereford genetics, just black Herefords don;t have the feet, eye and udder problens as red ones, and they yield BLACk cakves. And are as docile and as good a mother as the red ones.

But after all of this, the answer to the question or comment you made saying " I don't see the advantage in using Black Hereford instead of regular Hereford or Angus" is: With Black Herford you get the maximum heterosis of the Hereford- Brahma cross, but with a black color that makes the calves sell for more. Using Black Hereford instead of Angus, you still get the black calves but with the Hereford x Brah hybrid vigor vs the Angus- Brah somewhat-less hybrid vigor.

 

[Rmc]

Like any other breed association be it cattle or horses, the sire and dam names and usually 4-or 5 generations going back are recorded on the registration papers. As far as promoting bloodlines?!!!

Look around many breed associations promote and name there foundation animals

History of AQHA - AQHA

www.aqha.com

 

[Ky hills]

@Warren Allison
To respond to your statement “just black Herefords don;t have the feet, eye and udder problens as red ones, and they yield BLACk cakves. And are as docile and as good a mother as the red ones.’
I disagree, I’ve had several Registered Angus and 1/2 Angus 1/2 Herefords have pinkeye, bad udders too. Honestly, I’ve had more trouble with Angus udders than Herefords. As far as bad feet Angus have rewritten the book on that subject. Hereford bulls on average hold up much better than Angus feet and leg wise.
The big knock I have on Herefords these days, is that a lot of Hereford breeders are following either the show ring, bull of the month thing or both and if your not careful in selection you can end up with little toads.

 

[crossbredcalves]

I'm just waiting around to see pictures of these future heifers because it sounds like an interesting and probably profitable cross.

 

[Warren Allison]

[Spinal muscle atrophy in Brown Swiss x Braunvieh cross calves] - PubMed

The report describes seven SMA-cases in descendents of crossbreeds of American Brown Swiss x Deutsches Braunvieh. Symptoms and course: After initially normal development of the calves for one to six weeks the disease set in suddenly followed by a rapid lethal course of one to one and a half...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Warren Allison]

Braunvieh x Brown swiss heifers like the one I found down here bred to Brahma

 

[Charbrangus]

My hesitation with Charolais would be calving ease and BW until I knew what that hybrid vigor looked like.
Brahman adds a supercharger to the three way cross. I would want a couple calf crops before I left Angus or Hereford.
Other question does Hereford over Brown Swiss yield a dark calf like Hereford over Holstein.
The reason for the Hereford question is Hereford/ Brahman is the maximum hybrid cross for growth pounds.

I raised a Braunvieh bull from embryos that I had bought. Bulls were actually out of the original Braunvieh bull brought to America. I have 2 cows left out of the Braunvieh, one is half angus the other is out of a black baldie. My bull is half Charolais half Brangus. I had far more trouble with calving out of the Braunvieh than I do out of the Charolais/Brangus bull and he weighs about 2200 lbs. From experience I am not a fan of Braunvieh. It was a step down for me not a step up. If there is a problem with calving it will be from the Braunvieh.

 

[Warren Allison]

I'm just waiting around to see pictures of these future heifers because it sounds like an interesting and probably profitable cross.

I am anxious to see them too! I think these should do well for those who like eared cattle. I don't know if someone who was a beef guy and didnt own a dairy, would want to fool with getting Brown Swiss cows to breed with a Braunveih bull, then retain those heifers to breed with a Brahma, to get nice high=priced heifers out of. Now if someone had a dairy, especially a novelty dairy like this man has, and wanted to run Brown Swiss and use a Braunveih (would make your steer calves a little better) to breed them, I could see retaining those heifers to breed back to a Brahma, and then selling those heifers for a pretty good price.