Birth weights

[piedmontese]

Does anyone else think the low birth weights thing is getting carried away? I sure do. Seen 2 different groups of heifers sale with calves a month old or younger and there wasn't a calf over 50 lbs n the group. They sold for $2500. Damn these were 1100 lb heifers too!

 

[Aaron]

I've only ever had a few calves under 70 lbs ever born and majority never make it. I like 80-90 lb calves in the heifers and 90-100 in the cows.

 

[polledbull]

absolutly , it seems that now no one wants a calf to weigh over 70 lbs , and that is coming back to haunt people. I understand that some people have day jobs and want to not have to worry about thier cows having a live calf while they are away , and they also want to use the same bull on cows and hiefers , but they are giving up alot of growth and weaning weight when you compare a 65 lb BW versus a 90lb BW come weaning time in my opinion. percentage wise it is to much weight to make up in that amount of time . I dont want any 65 lb calves born on my place except on heifers . I will take a 85-90 lb calf everyday on a 3 time calver

 

[Nesikep]

I wouldn't want my heifers to have something under 70 lb, 80 is perfect for them, cows, they often do 100 and up.

What I don't quite understand is why some breeds (Limo for sure) are starting to put heavy emphasis on shorter gestation times... I'm not so sure I like that.. My cows carry longer than nearly any one elses it seems with a 288 day average... I have 1 maternal line that is less than that buy about 4 days and that's also the line that has given me the most grief with calving far too early... I think it's a cheat to a lighter birthweight as the calf is growing fast in the last few days, you can shave a couple pounds off the birthweight if he's a couple days early.

 

[quartercircle lazy j]

I like 'em small....... Lowline Angus.
http://s2.postimg.org/ktz31uwtl/20140307_162918.jpg

 

[mncowboy]

I've often thought in the older climates, a calf on the bigger side handles the elements considerably better than you ever popular calving ease "65" pounder. I agree too big isnt good, but I think too small is just has hazardous in cold elements.

 

[cowgirl8]

Back in the 80s Simmentals became the rage. We bought our first big sim and started our regular pulling of calves. For a while, it was normal to pull calves, it was normal to have 100 pounders, normal to lose a few cows a year. We've switched to angus bulls on our mostly sim cross cows and the calves are still big, but pulling has become history and losing cows rare. Occasionally the sim comes back out and we get a weirdly huge calf, but only on our older cows who can handle it. We buy low birthweight angus bulls for our heifers. We get calves anywhere from 30 to 60 pounds. If the heifer gives enough milk, the calves grow good. If not, they are dinky. Even with low birth EPDs, we still have to pull an occasional heifers calf. Out of 50 this year, we've pulled 2, but it was by hand and just to help the heifer along. The more angus our cows become, the less we are pulling calves. Angus calves come out standing..very different than a sim calf..... BUT, we are seeing more defects in our calves. So, i figure we'll start using a different breed of bull soon to stop that.

 

[mncowboy]

Does anyone feel the colder the winter the bigger the calf based on the increased feed intake?
Or is that unlikely?

 

[randiliana]

I believe its true that colder weather = bigger calves.

 

[Aaron]

Does anyone feel the colder the winter the bigger the calf based on the increased feed intake?
Or is that unlikely?

It's a sure thing especially if you calve in the first few months of the year. Don't see any difference year to year now that we calve in May.

 

[Nesikep]

Cowgirl8... if you even have to think of looking at your heifers when your BW's are 30 to 60 lbs, you have a serious problem with your heifers.. malpresentations the exception of course. In the 400 calves born here, we've lost 1 cow and calf due to size (the first year, when we bought lousy stock), and had 1 hard pull 3 years ago, where both survived. I've had a bunch of malpresentations that have caused losses, and a few others that needed a little bit of a hand, but we don't own a calf puller and have gotten by just fine. Over the last 5 years our BW's have been about 90 lb for heifer calves, 105 on bull calves, and from first timers, take about 10-15 lbs off that. My stubborn opinion is that you shouldn't have to be worried about BW on a mature cow, and on a heifer, just nothing extreme

 

[snake67]

My disclaimer: All the following thoughts apply to full size cattle - no minis and smaller breeds and so on. We are Horned Herf folks who often cross to Angus so I base the following on those type of animal.

Everyone who reads my thoughts on birth weights knows I do not believe - normal presentation - that any animal being kept for breeding should not be able to handle 100 pounds - on her own on first go. And she should be able to go bigger after that with no help. If on a normal presentation and reasonable body shape, you are required to pull a calf that weighs in at 100 pounds that cow is either bred too young or not worth keeping

Mind you I hear a lot about those 1100 pound cows - I can honestly state that I do not own any. And I have actually walked all of ours over a scale - they average 1500 and a bit. I have a couple that are about 1700 and change and they are about 15 years old. The oldest is number 99 - born on grass in Saskatchewan almost 17 years ago - raised the biggest calf last year. The old ones are all still calving strong calves.

I believe that initial size also increases / decreases longevity and productivity.

And we see it all the time here how people are selling their "old cows" that are starting to under perform - and very often they are under ten years of age! No performance there at all - at least in my mind.

If they are toast under the age of ten they are crap animals to begin with unless they have had an event that causes them to be culled.

When I see people having 50 pound calves I wonder two things:

1. Have they truly been scaled? and,

2. Where would I bury that animal if it was born here in minus 20 or colder weather?

I truly believe the "low birth weight" fad will come home to hurt the industry some day. I believe I see it here - right now - when I hear about "gigantic" 90 pound calves being "hard pulled". That animal is not a breeder she is a hazard and should either have been bred later or sold down the road before the bull even found out she was in the field.

Now I understand that calf shape can have a lot to do with this. But when I go back to my prairie days and think on all those animals being born on grass and under the watchful eye of the coyote and the wolf - I wonder how the heck they ever got to the point where they now live in pampered houses and have people hovering over them in a worried state - waiting for that 50 pound calf that in my mind - would not be worth keeping for breeding. Too small.

And the progeny will get smaller over time. Losing - once again my opinion and no stats - that all important vigour that kept them going when they were on grass and on their own. And also losing that all important longevity - which many people do not seem to value today.

Wife and I are downsizing this year - suspect all the cows will be gone but for a few. Most are already spoke for so the selling was not difficult - but loading them will be - always been a crowd here - but time for them to find a new home.

Best to all

Bez

 

[polledbull]

I will cull any cow that has a 50 lb calf at my place , I sat in a good meeting tonight by NCSU beef professer about breeding , it was about hiefer developement , and of course , we got to BW and calving ease , He has been with the beef unit for over 30 years, He said the lite BW thing had been taken way to the extreme and lots of folks were breeding them selves into a corner with BW down now into the low 60 lbs range and thier WW comming down every year , and if they saved their heifers , they were creating a calving problem over the long term. he stressed the nothing impacted WW more than a good nice BW , and he stresses any good 1300lb cow should have a 90lb calf without any problem and that calf would out weigh the 60 lb calf at weaning time by 75-100 lbs ,

 

[Nesikep]

We calf out a bit later than most (just got the 2nd), avoiding the worst of the bad weather, but I can't remember having to pull a calf indoors except for a twin the mother wasn't going to take care of.. We don't have any covered shelter, but the calves have good dry bedding and windbreaks.

Bez.. I'm with you on everything you've said (that may be a first)... I find my old cows keep getting better... I put down my 18 year old cow last fall, her last heifer was the best heifer of the herd in both conformation and size (it was her best too).. I have 4 10 year olds now, and they're all doing pretty good... If you're going for making more beef, you can always say "this 60 lb calf" could weigh as much as weaning as "that 100 lb calf"... but all things being equal, if that 60 lb calf was a 100 lb'er, he'd have weighed more at weaning. When I visit my neighbor I'm always shocked at how small his calves are when they're born.. but with Ralgro and a month earlier calving he does have my weaning weights beat. I'd say they're a moderate size (75-80 lbs) and he has very few troubles... checks on them once before dark and once at dawn, then whenever he's out and about in the daytime and sleeps well.. I don't see any reason to go smaller than that unless you're breeding minis.

One of my cows wasn't showing much action at 1 pm, I had a food coma and had a nap, 3 hours later I found her laying with a 135 lb calf, all dried up and fed.. she was a bit of an exception though, but if I have that kind of capacity in mind, I can get peace of mind that way as well

Oh, and I just looked up that "hard pull" on a heifer I had where both survived.. it was a 125 lb bull calf (weighed on a scale), she was probably 1100ish lbs

 

[cowgirl8]

Maybe the way yall do cows is different than what we do. Other than hay in the winter, we do not feed our cows. We breed our heifers at 14 months to low birth weight angus bulls and by the time they calve the heifer will weigh around 800 pounds. No way would i ever expect her to have a 100 pound calf. Even our big cows, the grown past heifers who weigh around 1300 average, do i ever want calves over 100. I find the bigger the calf the more they struggle if anything is wrong or the weather goes bad. Our old herd does have whoppers of over 100, but if its a bull calf they sometimes suffer from LUTTCS, low udder too tall calf syndrome...The bigger the calf the likely hood they will be stupid.
The more i read i wonder if your scales are wrong or maybe we under guess our weights. We dont have small cows. We are surrounded by other ranchers and I believe we have equal or better than average cows. Ever year we have trouble getting our cows into our chutes because they keep getting bigger and bigger and our weaning weights get higher and higher even though we are moving away from Sims and getting more angus.
If yall are 100 % sure your scales are good, i'd love to come see your cows. We are always wanting to improve our 35 yr old operation and we have made leaps and bounds from the 1970s type cattle we started with.

 

[Beef Man]

My disclaimer: All the following thoughts apply to full size cattle - no minis and smaller breeds and so on. We are Horned Herf folks who often cross to Angus so I base the following on those type of animal.

Everyone who reads my thoughts on birth weights knows I do not believe - normal presentation - that any animal being kept for breeding should not be able to handle 100 pounds - on her own on first go. And she should be able to go bigger after that with no help. If on a normal presentation and reasonable body shape, you are required to pull a calf that weighs in at 100 pounds that cow is either bred too young or not worth keeping

Mind you I hear a lot about those 1100 pound cows - I can honestly state that I do not own any. And I have actually walked all of ours over a scale - they average 1500 and a bit. I have a couple that are about 1700 and change and they are about 15 years old. The oldest is number 99 - born on grass in Saskatchewan almost 17 years ago - raised the biggest calf last year. The old ones are all still calving strong calves.

I believe that initial size also increases / decreases longevity and productivity.

And we see it all the time here how people are selling their "old cows" that are starting to under perform - and very often they are under ten years of age! No performance there at all - at least in my mind.

If they are toast under the age of ten they are crap animals to begin with unless they have had an event that causes them to be culled.

When I see people having 50 pound calves I wonder two things:

1. Have they truly been scaled? and,

2. Where would I bury that animal if it was born here in minus 20 or colder weather?

I truly believe the "low birth weight" fad will come home to hurt the industry some day. I believe I see it here - right now - when I hear about "gigantic" 90 pound calves being "hard pulled". That animal is not a breeder she is a hazard and should either have been bred later or sold down the road before the bull even found out she was in the field.

Now I understand that calf shape can have a lot to do with this. But when I go back to my prairie days and think on all those animals being born on grass and under the watchful eye of the coyote and the wolf - I wonder how the heck they ever got to the point where they now live in pampered houses and have people hovering over them in a worried state - waiting for that 50 pound calf that in my mind - would not be worth keeping for breeding. Too small.

And the progeny will get smaller over time. Losing - once again my opinion and no stats - that all important vigour that kept them going when they were on grass and on their own. And also losing that all important longevity - which many people do not seem to value today.

Wife and I are downsizing this year - suspect all the cows will be gone but for a few. Most are already spoke for so the selling was not difficult - but loading them will be - always been a crowd here - but time for them to find a new home.

Best to all

Bez

We have a question. We are calveing quite a lot of baldy and straight black heifers and are puzzeling about the pelvic size in a number of tthe straight blacks. They are supposed to be super light birthweight, themselves. We A.I. D them along with the baldy's andour own straight herefords and they been calving like normal.The question is by constantly selecting for birthweight are we causeing other problems??? We do agree that at least in this part of the world and in mostly the great outdoors a calf must have some body mass to withstand the elements. Goes back to "acow better be able to birth a calf at least 8% of her body weight". One other thing ,we do get criticized on some of our bull birthweights, to big, but every calf is weighed in a sling hanging from a scale and no exceptions!! So when its done right that is the weight that goes in the book. We do steer the unusually large ones . We don't pull cow's calves unless unusuall presentation.

 

[cowgirl8]

There is a difference between low birth weight and small calf... If you have a 100 pound calf frame and it weights 60, that would be a low birth weight. You have a small calf that is fleshy and weighs 60 its just as sturdy as his big herd mate, but technically its not 'low' birth weight. Its just small...

 

[Nesikep]

I don't have a scale for the adult cows, but use a weigh tape around the chest and compare it to what I sold at auction in the past... My heifers are no less than 600 at weaning, which puts them somewere around 900 at breeding, and 1100 after the first calf which I think is about right. Our calves get milk and grass until november, then 2nd cut hay. No grain, molasses, etc.

I think of it like building muscle... if you don't excercise it, you lost it, same goes for calving ability over time... if you don't force the cows to at least have moderate size calves, you'll never know if they can really do it and won't be culling based on it.

 

[cowgirl8]

Our cows graduate to bulls. First bull is a young low birth weight angus bull.. Second year they go to another average bull...By they time they get to the old pasture, 8 and up, we put big bulls on them, usually a sim cross. Never have to pull a calf out there and yes, they wean bigger calves. But, the first couple years a cow isnt going to give enough milk for a big calf. Put a 100 pound calf on a angus heifer and she's not going to raise the same calf that 10 yr old seasoned cow is. That same heifer produces a 50 pound calf, she'll milk it just fine and the end product about the same. Lose a couple calves to birthing death, you'll have to have a lot of big calves to make up that price lost which you wont out of a heifer. But have them all survive and grow well, there is no need to strive for the biggest calf for that first calf.

 

[randiliana]

I don't know exactly where you are cowgirl, and location makes a difference.

I expect my cows to be able to be able to handle a calf that is 7-9% of her body weight. That puts us with cows that can easily handle a 100lb calf. So far this year our biggest calf was 113 lbs, she had him by herself. Heifers should be able to handle about the same thing, our heifers will run about 1100 lbs right now, so I see no reason that they can't handle a 80-90 lb calf. Bigger than that and I expect to help a few of them.

I find that most people that don't weigh their calves really have no idea what they weigh. I mean, if you don't ever weigh them how can you expect to be accurate at guessing weights, you have no reference point as to what an 80 lb calf looks like. Heck, we weigh every calf and there are lots of times when we are out by 10 lbs or more on what they weigh. I trust my scale, it may not be legal, but we try to check it every now and then with something we know the weight of.

Anyways, a good target to hit is 7-8% of the animals body weight. So for 1300 lb cows 91-100 lbs. For 800 lb heifers 56-64 lbs and for 1100 lb heifer like ours 77-88 lbs (which would pretty much be my target of 80-90 lbs)

If you run into too many LUTTCS calves, then perhaps your real problem isn't the calf, but the udder of the cow.... That is a problem, that we rarely deal with around here, even on the couple of cows that have, shall we say, larger than average udders. We also don't usually have an issue with slow calves (due to BW) you need to use easy calving bulls, they make those long lean calves that are born easy even if they weigh 110+ lbs. Blocky calves don't come out easy regardless of size.