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Katpau said:
I get so tired of people making the statement that 51% black has anything to do with CAB. I don't know where this came from, but being predominantly black does not mean 51%, The cattle must also be "Angus influenced", and besides that, the black color is just one minor characteristic for CAB. It is the 10 quality standards that define CAB. Plenty of purebred Angus cattle, do not qualify for CAB. It takes both the proper genetics and the proper feeding regimen to achieve a CAB carcass.

QUOTED from the CAB website
"To earn the Certified Angus Beef ® brand name, cattle must first be Angus-influenced, with a predominantly solid black coat. Then, beef must pass our 10 quality standards:"
Click to expand...
You did not print the whole statement by AAA:
Angus cattle can qualify for the Certified Angus Beef® (CAB) brand. According to the American Angus Association, live cattle must be Angus-influenced and have a predominately (51%) solid black hide to be eligible for CAB evaluation. They must meet all of the 10 following criteria to be certified by USDA graders and labeled with the Certified Angus Beef® brand 1:

My purebred Simmental cattle qualify for CAB. I have sold many steers thru Cornell Steer Feedout Program - all my black hided Simmental were sold CAB.
The live requirements are the 51% black hide, "beef" type, no hump cattle.
Then, when they are killed, they have all the carcass requirements.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
You did not print the whole statement by AAA:
Angus cattle can qualify for the Certified Angus Beef® (CAB) brand. According to the American Angus Association, live cattle must be Angus-influenced and have a predominately (51%) solid black hide to be eligible for CAB evaluation. They must meet all of the 10 following criteria to be certified by USDA graders and labeled with the Certified Angus Beef® brand 1:

My purebred Simmental cattle qualify for CAB. I have sold many steers thru Cornell Steer Feedout Program - all my black hided Simmental were sold CAB.
The live requirements are the 51% black hide, "beef" type, no hump cattle.
Then, when they are killed, they have all the carcass requirements.
Click to expand...
Exactly, there is no real proof of breed % be it documentation or DNA required for CAB. I know some Angus breeders that want DNA requirements for CAB,
From what I understand there would not be enough cattle to meet that requirement to fulfill the orders so that will likely not happen any time soon.
I'd venture to say a lot of the CAB is from calves are high percentage to pure Simmental, or 1/2 Angus/1/2 Hereford
or 1/2 Angus/something else, so my way of thinking a lot of CAB is likely only 50% or less Angus if truth was known.
 
Ky hills said:
Exactly, there is no real proof of breed % be it documentation or DNA required for CAB. I know some Angus breeders that want DNA requirements for CAB,
From what I understand there would not be enough cattle to meet that requirement to fulfill the orders so that will likely not happen any time soon.
I'd venture to say a lot of the CAB is from calves are high percentage to pure Simmental, or 1/2 Angus/1/2 Hereford
or 1/2 Angus/something else, so my way of thinking a lot of CAB is likely only 50% or less Angus if truth was known.
Click to expand...
Well , the color is just the 1st step to getting one inspected to see if it qualifies for CAB. It is the marbling and rib eye area that makes Angus beef superior. The CAB program has done exactly what it was designed to do... encourage the use of Angus in commercial beef programs. When it was started in 1980, DNA testing trechnology was slow and expensive, so color was naturally the gate keeper. There may be a Simmental that is very far removed from Angus, that has the marbling, REA, etc, to qualify for CAB. and that's ok if some do make it. It hasn't hurt even one Angus producer out there. CAB has exponentially increased the amount of Angus used in beef cattle programs. And, while there may be a Herford or Charolais that has the marbling, etc, to score CAB, why in the world would the AAA allow that? Or want those cattle included? as far as I know, there are no laws, rules, or regulations preventing Hereford, Charolais, etc., breeders from getting their associations, to spend the millions on researching and identifying carcass qualities unique to those breeds, then spending millions on marketing to introduce the public to that beef, and convince them to pay extra for it. Actually, Hereford wouldn't have to. Black Herefords qualify to be inspected for CAB. A Black hereford is aty leat 5/8ths Hereford and no more than 2./8ths Angus. But, the black Herford association allows you toe breed a reg BH to a reg red Hereford, and if the calf is black it can be registered BH. There are more BHs out there now that are 96% red Hereford than the original 5/8ths- 3/8ths composite. At 96%, those BHs are more Herford than pb Simmentals and Charolais are Simm or Charolais. Speaking of Simmental. there are many people who raise Simms, and they get black calves, bwf, rwf, solid reds, and the original red & white Simms, Their commercial black or bwf, will fetch the CVAB premium. But, you don't hear any of them moaning and whining about " the evil CAB program". causing their red calves to be "docked". They know that if they want all of their calves to bring the premium, they just need to use homo for black bulls.
 
Here you go. A "few" certified beef programs:
 
a few more:
 
Warren Allison said:
Well , the color is just the 1st step to getting one inspected to see if it qualifies for CAB. It is the marbling and rib eye area that makes Angus beef superior. The CAB program has done exactly what it was designed to do... encourage the use of Angus in commercial beef programs. When it was started in 1980, DNA testing trechnology was slow and expensive, so color was naturally the gate keeper. There may be a Simmental that is very far removed from Angus, that has the marbling, REA, etc, to qualify for CAB. and that's ok if some do make it. It hasn't hurt even one Angus producer out there. CAB has exponentially increased the amount of Angus used in beef cattle programs. And, while there may be a Herford or Charolais that has the marbling, etc, to score CAB, why in the world would the AAA allow that? Or want those cattle included? as far as I know, there are no laws, rules, or regulations preventing Hereford, Charolais, etc., breeders from getting their associations, to spend the millions on researching and identifying carcass qualities unique to those breeds, then spending millions on marketing to introduce the public to that beef, and convince them to pay extra for it. Actually, Hereford wouldn't have to. Black Herefords qualify to be inspected for CAB. A Black hereford is aty leat 5/8ths Hereford and no more than 2./8ths Angus. But, the black Herford association allows you toe breed a reg BH to a reg red Hereford, and if the calf is black it can be registered BH. There are more BHs out there now that are 96% red Hereford than the original 5/8ths- 3/8ths composite. At 96%, those BHs are more Herford than pb Simmentals and Charolais are Simm or Charolais. Speaking of Simmental. there are many people who raise Simms, and they get black calves, bwf, rwf, solid reds, and the original red & white Simms, Their commercial black or bwf, will fetch the CVAB premium. But, you don't hear any of them moaning and whining about " the evil CAB program". causing their red calves to be "docked". They know that if they want all of their calves to bring the premium, they just need to use homo for black bulls.
Click to expand...
Can't convince me that there aren't a lot of F1, 50% Angus/50% Herefords that qualify for every step of CAB. Im not talking "black Herefords" either.
Yes CAB has helped Angus breeders sell Angus bulls, I've never disputed that.
There is a reality that other breeds are playing the game too and are now cutting into the market share of Angus bull sales.
I have several friends that are Angus breeders and I've been hearing for several years that it's been tough for them to sell bulls, in other words the supply of Angus bulls has somewhat outpaced the demand. Other registered breeders of Simmental and Herefords have been selling out fairly quickly and at prices comparable and maybe even more than the average Angus bulls.
Understand I'm not knocking Angus I've used Angus bulls for 20 yrs, but over the last 10 or so I've brought in a few other breeds to find something that works a little better for what I'm trying to do.
AAA has the numbers and money to promote CAB and make it a success.
It's marketing, and they launched it at the perfect time to capitalize on the 80's frame race mess. Everybody involved with cattle were at that time learning that they had created a monster of a disaster with the frame size and they had to change.
Angus had the numbers and enough cattle that had not been pushed to the extreme so they had that going for them as well, coupled with the CAB.
 
Ky hills said:
Can't convince me that there aren't a lot of F1, 50% Angus/50% Herefords that qualify for every step of CAB. Im not talking "black Herefords" either.
Yes CAB has helped Angus breeders sell Angus bulls, I've never disputed that.
There is a reality that other breeds are playing the game too and are now cutting into the market share of Angus bull sales.
I have several friends that are Angus breeders and I've been hearing for several years that it's been tough for them to sell bulls, in other words the supply of Angus bulls has somewhat outpaced the demand. Other registered breeders of Simmental and Herefords have been selling out fairly quickly and at prices comparable and maybe even more than the average Angus bulls.
Understand I'm not knocking Angus I've used Angus bulls for 20 yrs, but over the last 10 or so I've brought in a few other breeds to find something that works a little better for what I'm trying to do.
AAA has the numbers and money to promote CAB and make it a success.
It's marketing, and they launched it at the perfect time to capitalize on the 80's frame race mess. Everybody involved with cattle were at that time learning that they had created a monster of a disaster with the frame size and they had to change.
Angus had the numbers and enough cattle that had not been pushed to the extreme so they had that going for them as well, coupled with the CAB.
Click to expand...
Oh, about every black baldy calf brings a CAB premium at the sale, no doubt on that. How many of them score CAB after slaughter? I bet just as many do as solid blacks. Black Herefords as well fetch the CAB premium, and they may be as little as 5% Angus. It would be interesting to know how many of those carcasses score CAB. There are 30-something..near;ly 40...other certified angus programs out there besides the well- known CAB. One of them last year, submitted paperwork to the USDA, asking to be able to include red angus in their program. I haven't heard how that is going, though. It would be cumbersome to have reg papers follow a calf from the sale, to the feedlot, and then to the processor, and I don't see how the time factor would allow for DNA testing at slaughter.
 
Warren Allison said:
Oh, about every black baldy calf brings a CAB premium at the sale, no doubt on that. How many of them score CAB after slaughter? I bet just as many do as solid blacks. Black Herefords as well fetch the CAB premium, and they may be as little as 5% Angus. It would be interesting to know how many of those carcasses score CAB. There are 30-something..near;ly 40...other certified angus programs out there besides the well- known CAB. One of them last year, submitted paperwork to the USDA, asking to be able to include red angus in their program. I haven't heard how that is going, though. It would be cumbersome to have reg papers follow a calf from the sale, to the feedlot, and then to the processor, and I don't see how the time factor would allow for DNA testing at slaughter.
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I'm not advocating for paperwork or DNA I don't think anybody wants to incur more work or cost when it comes to raising/feeding cattle.
There are or were as of several years ago programs from the AAA called Angus Source a source and breed verification program that would do just what you are saying.
 
They wouldn't do DNA, they would have certified eartags, would be my guess.
Just because an animal of other breeds is black does not mean the DNA would come back .875 Simmental and .125 Angus (example). It could be .875 Simmental, .10 Hereford. .025 Angus. It could be even a lot less % Angus. All it takes is ONE GENE, getting passed generation after generation. Or, inheriting TWO GENES back in the beginning of crossbreeding.
Just because an animal is black, does not mean there is much of any Angus genetics.
A color gene does not make a breed or breed characteristics.
 
Ky hills said:
Since this is a Beltie thread,
This little feller was born overnight his mother is a Belted Galloway that we bought back in March as a 3 in 1.
He doesn't have a belt, he should qualify for CAB🤔😂View attachment 37169
Click to expand...
What is the sire? Dunno what will happen at slaughter once the hide is off, but I guarantee you when you sell him he will fetch the premium, and the carcass will be sent to be scored for CAB.
 
Warren Allison said:
What is the sire? Dunno what will happen at slaughter once the hide is off, but I guarantee you when you sell him he will fetch the premium, and the carcass will be sent to be scored for CAB.
Click to expand...
No idea what the sire is but my guess would be an Angus type bull.
I guarantee we won't see any premium what so ever. Somewhere down the line somebody might, but the cow calf people like me just get market price for black cattle unless it's seen as a short or fleshy and it will get a discount like an off colored one.
 
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Ky hills said:
Exactly, there is no real proof of breed % be it documentation or DNA required for CAB. I know some Angus breeders that want DNA requirements for CAB,
From what I understand there would not be enough cattle to meet that requirement to fulfill the orders so that will likely not happen any time soon.
I'd venture to say a lot of the CAB is from calves are high percentage to pure Simmental, or 1/2 Angus/1/2 Hereford
or 1/2 Angus/something else, so my way of thinking a lot of CAB is likely only 50% or less Angus if truth was known.
Click to expand...
That's why there are black Lims and black Sims, and black Herefords.
 
Travlr said:
That's why there are black Lims and black Sims, and black Herefords.
Click to expand...
Technically both yes and no.
The original reason there are black Simmentals and Limousins is because of the breeding up programs to grow the breed registries in the US. The US cowherd was pretty much Angus or Hereford until the continentals came on the scene. The continental bulls were bred to the existing British breed cows that made up the US herd. Naturally those crosses were going to be black with the exception of the Charolais crosses. So there was already a black hided presence in breeds like Simmental prior to the CAB.
Now I have no doubt that after all the CAB stuff caught on that the breeds that could started selectively breeding for black hides.
The "black Hereford" "breed" is different in the sense that yes it became a thing for the sole purpose of marketing black hided cattle for CAB.
 
Ky hills said:
Since this is a Beltie thread,
This little feller was born overnight his mother is a Belted Galloway that we bought back in March as a 3 in 1.
He doesn't have a belt, he should qualify for CAB🤔😂View attachment 37169
Click to expand...
Ok turkey!!
Where a sweet pic of mama!

Better yet... baby nursing mama!


That baby is cute as a button btw!
 
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MurraysMutts said:
Ok turkey!!
Where a sweet pic of mama!

Better yet... baby nursing mama!


That baby is cute as a button btw!
Click to expand...
I'll try to get one of them together.
Mama Belt left him to come to hay.
She had a evidence of having calved on her so we drove down and found him.
That Mama Belt ain't really all that sweet, not mean but on the skittish side.
 
Ky hills said:
I'll try to get one of them together.
Mama Belt left him to come to hay.
She had a evidence of having calved on her so we drove down and found him.
That Mama Belt ain't really all that sweet, not mean but on the skittish side.
Click to expand...
Awwwe. Bless her lil heart!

That chromed up black white cow I had, raised a good solid black calf. Weird how sometimes that belt/white gets left behind.
 
MurraysMutts said:
Awwwe. Bless her lil heart!

That chromed up black white cow I had, raised a good solid black calf. Weird how sometimes that belt/white gets left behind.
Click to expand...
I wonder if the belt comes back through in future generations from a solid calf?
Getting ready to turn a RWF Simmental bull out with cows and a BWF out with heifers got a belt in each group might get a white face with belt out of one of them at some point.
 

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