Balancer Bull

[Stocker Steve]

But then what would we do with all the Angus cattle?

Cross them with hereford or gelbvieh for replacements or with charolais or limousin for feeder calves[/quote]

I bought a bunch of hereford heifers two years ago. I had one high headed one and I had several that weaned small calves but they all raised a calf and they all bred back... The high headed one went to the bred cow sale and the rest are doing well.
I bought a bunch of BA heifers last year. I have a couple small calves again, but I also have several that are very indifferent mothers... Time for Hard Cull'in again.

I think I will go back to buying Herefords cows and using a black bull on them.

 

[3waycross]

I agree but having said that going back to a 3rd breed with her is the most bang for your buck.....no?

Not in my experience, the 3-way cross certainly has its merits, but I believe it should be used terminally. An F1 herefordxgelbvieh cow bred to a charolais bull for a terminal cross is in my opinion as close to ideal a feeder calf as you'll likely get, but bringing the 3rd breed into the maternal side of things just complicates breeding options and reduces hybrid vigour in (and mongerlises) the resulting feeder calf. /quote]

But then what would we do with all the Angus cattle?

That is the point of the 3waycross.....no. I never suggested anything else

 

[KNERSIE]

Then we agree, it just loses it's merit completely when you want to maintain a three way cross cowherd.

 

[Brandonm22]

Then we agree, it just loses it's merit completely when you want to maintain a three way cross cowherd.

Yes a three way rotation where all three crosses get saved as replacements gets screwy real fast. Probably the best case scenario there would be Hereford x Angus x Simmental (the new black polled Simmies). Even if you managed it all perfectly so the right cow got bred to the right breed bull (and most don't) you would still be marketing three way cross calves that are well over 50% Hereford over 50% Simmental, and over 50% Angus. That is a lot of genetic variation to come off of one trailer, though in the example given they should be all polled and 90+% Black. An easier way to do much the same thing would be a two way cross of Hereford x SimAngus.

 

[3waycross]

Then we agree, it just loses it's merit completely when you want to maintain a three way cross cowherd.

Yes a three way rotation where all three crosses get saved as replacements gets screwy real fast. Probably the best case scenario there would be Hereford x Angus x Simmental (the new black polled Simmies). Even if you managed it all perfectly so the right cow got bred to the right breed bull (and most don't) you would still be marketing three way cross calves that are well over 50% Hereford over 50% Simmental, and over 50% Angus. That is a lot of genetic variation to come off of one trailer, though in the example given they should be all polled and 90+% Black. An easier way to do much the same thing would be a two way cross of Hereford x SimAngus.

or the NEW blk polled Gelbvieh which is this thread started out about...........

Maybe I could follow every Sim thread and tell everyone how they should use Gelbvieh instead...........Just sayin.

50% Hereford over 50% Simmental, and over 50% Angus.

I don't know about anyone else but I would like to see that %150 3way cross.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

brandon musta had a brain fart,,, he's a pretty sharp knife :lol:

 

[ALACOWMAN]

when i went to a simmental bull to raise some simbra years ago i also breed my..... look out here it comes....""" F1 BRAFORDS""" thats brahman/ hereford f1s to the novice, to the simm bull... raised some good replacement heifers out of those

 

[3waycross]

brandon musta had a brain fart,,, he's a pretty sharp knife :lol:

Yes he is. and I know exactly what he was trying to say. I was just picking on him.

Actually if it was me I would use red GV on Herf cows then turn em blk for the feedlots with Angus bulls. The cows would have good milk, great maternal, and good dispositions and better heat tolerance from being red.

 

[Brandonm22]

Then we agree, it just loses it's merit completely when you want to maintain a three way cross cowherd.

Yes a three way rotation where all three crosses get saved as replacements gets screwy real fast. Probably the best case scenario there would be Hereford x Angus x Simmental (the new black polled Simmies). Even if you managed it all perfectly so the right cow got bred to the right breed bull (and most don't) you would still be marketing three way cross calves that are well over 50% Hereford over 50% Simmental, and over 50% Angus. That is a lot of genetic variation to come off of one trailer, though in the example given they should be all polled and 90+% Black. An easier way to do much the same thing would be a two way cross of Hereford x SimAngus.

or the NEW blk polled Gelbvieh which is this thread started out about...........

Maybe I could follow every Sim thread and tell everyone how they should use Gelbvieh instead...........Just sayin.

50% Hereford over 50% Simmental, and over 50% Angus.

I don't know about anyone else but I would like to see that %150 3way cross.

I apologize for wording that VERY poorly. In a 3 way rotation (and I will gladly switch that to polled black Gelbvieh for politeness sake) where all three crosses get used equally as replacements, the Hereford bulls would be breeding the 50% Gelbvieh sired 3 way cross cows, the Angus bulls would be breeding the Hereford sired 3 way cross females, and the Gelbvieh bulls would be breeding the Angus sired 3 way cross females (you can change that order if you want to). When you round up those calves a 1/3 would have a Hereford sire and a Hereford Great grandsire (thus 50++% Hereford blood), the Gelbvieh sired calves would likewise be more than 50% Gelbvieh (Gelbvieh sire and great grandsire...and great great great great grandsire, etc if you keep repeating this rotation), dittoe with the Angus sired calves. My point is that three different sire breeds is an awful lot of genetic variation to have on one pot belly trailer full of calves from the same ranch. A lot better than a rainbow herd but your losing a lot of consistency just to get that little bit extra heterosis kick from the third breed.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I assumed 150% cows had large frames.

 

[3waycross]

I assumed 150% cows had large frames.

thanks Steve for the snot all over my computer.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I apologize for wording that VERY poorly. In a 3 way rotation (and I will gladly switch that to polled black Gelbvieh for politeness sake) where all three crosses get used equally as replacements, the Hereford bulls would be breeding the 50% Gelbvieh sired 3 way cross cows, the Angus bulls would be breeding the Hereford sired 3 way cross females, and the Gelbvieh bulls would be breeding the Angus sired 3 way cross females (you can change that order if you want to). When you round up those calves a 1/3 would have a Hereford sire and a Hereford Great grandsire (thus 50++% Hereford blood), the Gelbvieh sired calves would likewise be more than 50% Gelbvieh (Gelbvieh sire and great grandsire...and great great great great grandsire, etc if you keep repeating this rotation), dittoe with the Angus sired calves. My point is that three different sire breeds is an awful lot of genetic variation to have on one pot belly trailer full of calves from the same ranch. A lot better than a rainbow herd but your losing a lot of consistency just to get that little bit extra heterosis kick from the third breed.

That is why you need a 33% Gelbvieh/33% Herford/33% Angus x bull to make it all workout right. Haven't you paid attention to the composite gurus?

 

[KNERSIE]

I apologize for wording that VERY poorly. In a 3 way rotation (and I will gladly switch that to polled black Gelbvieh for politeness sake) where all three crosses get used equally as replacements, the Hereford bulls would be breeding the 50% Gelbvieh sired 3 way cross cows, the Angus bulls would be breeding the Hereford sired 3 way cross females, and the Gelbvieh bulls would be breeding the Angus sired 3 way cross females (you can change that order if you want to). When you round up those calves a 1/3 would have a Hereford sire and a Hereford Great grandsire (thus 50++% Hereford blood), the Gelbvieh sired calves would likewise be more than 50% Gelbvieh (Gelbvieh sire and great grandsire...and great great great great grandsire, etc if you keep repeating this rotation), dittoe with the Angus sired calves. My point is that three different sire breeds is an awful lot of genetic variation to have on one pot belly trailer full of calves from the same ranch. A lot better than a rainbow herd but your losing a lot of consistency just to get that little bit extra heterosis kick from the third breed.

That is why you need a 33% Gelbvieh/33% Herford/33% Angus x bull to make it all workout right. Haven't you paid attention to the composite gurus?

I guess I haven't...

There is a big difference between farming on paper and farming on the range, however.

 

[Brandonm22]

That is why you need a 33% Gelbvieh/33% Herford/33% Angus x bull to make it all workout right. Haven't you paid attention to the composite gurus?

When I was working for Carroll's Foods in North Carolina in the 90s the company invested in some Stabilizers that Leachman (then) in Montana supplied. I believe they were ~25% Angus, 25% Hereford, 25% Simmental, and 25% Gelbvieh those those percentages weren't cast in stone. They were good solid cattle. I doubt that I would have spent MY money on them; but they did work in the real world.....or at least as real as grazing the over fertilized pastures around NC hog farms can be.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Pharo offers some 3 way cross bulls but they are a very very small percentage of what is sold.

Schiefelbein offers Balancer bulls in addition to BA. Since they use very trendy Angus genetics and buy back steer calves to feed out, I asked how this works for them. They said that a 25% continental feeder is a good thing.

 

[3waycross]

Pharo offers some 3 way cross bulls but they are a very very small percentage of what is sold.

Schiefelbein offers Balancer bulls in addition to BA. Since they use very trendy Angus genetics and buy back steer calves to feed out, I asked how this works for them. They said that a 25% continental feeder is a good thing.[/quote]


Which is exactly what I suggested.................and I am pretty sure that feeding in the feedlot is a lot more real than doing it on paper.

 

[VanC]

Yes a three way rotation where all three crosses get saved as replacements gets screwy real fast. Probably the best case scenario there would be Hereford x Angus x Simmental (the new black polled Simmies). Even if you managed it all perfectly so the right cow got bred to the right breed bull (and most don't) you would still be marketing three way cross calves that are well over 50% Hereford over 50% Simmental, and over 50% Angus. That is a lot of genetic variation to come off of one trailer, though in the example given they should be all polled and 90+% Black. An easier way to do much the same thing would be a two way cross of Hereford x SimAngus.

or the NEW blk polled Gelbvieh which is this thread started out about...........

Maybe I could follow every Sim thread and tell everyone how they should use Gelbvieh instead...........Just sayin.

50% Hereford over 50% Simmental, and over 50% Angus.

I don't know about anyone else but I would like to see that %150 3way cross.

I apologize for wording that VERY poorly. In a 3 way rotation (and I will gladly switch that to polled black Gelbvieh for politeness sake) where all three crosses get used equally as replacements, the Hereford bulls would be breeding the 50% Gelbvieh sired 3 way cross cows, the Angus bulls would be breeding the Hereford sired 3 way cross females, and the Gelbvieh bulls would be breeding the Angus sired 3 way cross females (you can change that order if you want to). When you round up those calves a 1/3 would have a Hereford sire and a Hereford Great grandsire (thus 50++% Hereford blood), the Gelbvieh sired calves would likewise be more than 50% Gelbvieh (Gelbvieh sire and great grandsire...and great great great great grandsire, etc if you keep repeating this rotation), dittoe with the Angus sired calves. My point is that three different sire breeds is an awful lot of genetic variation to have on one pot belly trailer full of calves from the same ranch. A lot better than a rainbow herd but your losing a lot of consistency just to get that little bit extra heterosis kick from the third breed.

I agree with Brandon. Doesn't seem worth the trouble. Plus when the 3 breed rotation stabilizes, the percentages of each breed ends up roughly 4/7 of the first, 2/7 of the second and 1/7 of the third. So every one of the calves ends up with only 1/7 blood of one of the three breeds. Doesn't seem like a big enough percentage to make much difference, especially considering the extra management that system takes. Either way, you'd definitely need three breeds that are fairly compatible and you'd need to use bulls that are balanced in both maternal and terminal traits.

 

[3waycross]

I don't disagree with Brandon. What I said was a whole different plan. I think a 3 breed rotation breeds mutts.

Depending on the cowherd I would keep a select number of older proven herf females breed them to a GV bull possibly even AI and then clean them up with the Angus. Either way you win. Then select ALL of my replacements from their dtrs(the ones who were GV sired), who in turn would be bred to the Angus bull. ]

 

[KNERSIE]

Ideally I want more continental and less British in the terminal calf and more British and less continental in the cowherd.

 

[3waycross]

Ideally I want more continental and less British in the terminal calf and more British and less continental in the cowherd.

So how much maternal do you want to give up in the cowherd and how much carcass do you want to give up in the feeder calf.

I think it just goes to personal preference. I really like the fertility the GV brings to the table in the cowherd. Besides if you go back on them with a big growthy Angus bull you can capture more growth that way.