Balancer Bull for hereford and charlios?

[double_B_ranch]

Going to buy a new bull and am leaning towards a balancer bull. was wondering some of the pros of this breed and as opposed to a Gelbvieh bull. will be breeding Hereford and also some charlios mix cows. thank you for your input.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I know this is going to draw some fire I never liked putting a composite bull on cows .
I prefered to put a Straightbred low birthweigt calving ease bull on composite cows, I have a better chance of controlling whats in the woodpile. I never trusted the epd's on the composites, we forget epds poped up just forty years ago for thousands of years of genetics.
We have breeds of cattle that have been bred for certain traits for hundreds of years and tried to get the best of both worlds by making a composite. I love a Brangus cow you will never see a Brangus bull in my pasture.
Thats just my 2 cents on a Composite bull.

 

[ANAZAZI]

I am with caustic on the balancer issue. I like composite breeds, but it seems that balancers more often than not are just first or second generation crossbred (based on info from this board only). This will likely hurt the consistency of the calf crop.
A gelb bull will add muscle and growth to hereford and milk to charolais, and provide good heterosis for both.

 

[3waycross]

I am with caustic on the balancer issue. I like composite breeds, but it seems that balancers more often than not are just first or second generation crossbred (based on info from this board only). This will likely hurt the consistency of the calf crop.
A gelb bull will add muscle and growth to hereford and milk to charolais, and provide good heterosis for both.

Not arguing your point but I have to ask. Are there a lot of balancers in Sweeden?

 

[ANAZAZI]

None. Therefore I stated that my wiew on balancers comes strictly from this forum.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I bet they are but folks just call them xbred cows.

 

[ANAZAZI]

I bet they are but folks just call them xbred cows.

Good point red bull.
However; there are no gelvieh cattle at all, to make the mix from.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Balancer, Limflex, or Simangus all composites bred mainly for use on angus based cow herds, might work out over the hereford cows alright. But the Char cross cows i think would do better with a straight bred bull.

 

[double_B_ranch]

thanks for all the replies. i know a place where i can get a real nice Gelbvieh bull, i was leaning more towards the balancer bull because of the marbling in the Angus and the growth of a Gelbvieh. I'm looking for black baldy calves out of the Hereford cattle another reason i was looking towards a balancer bull. any more advice or anyone that has a balancer bull?

 

[Angus Cowman]

thanks for all the replies. i know a place where i can get a real nice Gelbvieh bull, i was leaning more towards the balancer bull because of the marbling in the Angus and the growth of a Gelbvieh. I'm looking for black baldy calves out of the Hereford cattle another reason i was looking towards a balancer bull. any more advice or anyone that has a balancer bull?

if your wanting the marbling I would probably go with a straight angus to get it and the bald face then breed them replacement to a balancer, or simangus bull
or breed them to a 5/8 angus sim-angus bull

 

[dun]

You won;t get the marbelnig in the first cross but you will have an excellent bunch of replacment prospects wiht a homo black Gelbvieh on Hereford cows. We use a hetero black Gelbvieh on Hereford cows . Lats year all of the calves were red and bulls, thos year all but one are red bulls, the exception is a black heifer.
I would prefer the red heifers and black bulls, but I'll take what I can get to get the F1 Gelbvieh Herefords

 

[3waycross]

None. Therefore I stated that my wiew on balancers comes strictly from this forum.

Personally I don't care if he buys a straight Gelbvieh or a balancer but, I would hope the descision would be based on at least a little bit of hard information not anecdotes from an internet forum.

My personal opinion based at least on some personal experience would be if he is looking to do what Dun is doing ie. (making some F-1 Gelbvieh/Hereford momma cows) is to do just what he is doing. He would benefit from the maximum heterosis and get some good(growthy) steers as a byproduct, If he just wants some terminal calves with increased marbling then look for a Balancer bull with high EPD's for growth, marbling, and Carcass weight, and let her rip. I don't believe for a minute that a Balancer would result in any kind of loss of performance on the Char cross cows and would probably add some needed marbling in the process.

OR he could AI his cows for a couple of years to this bull and get it all including calving ease in one package.http://bullbarn.com/gelbepd.asp?ID=239, and yes I own dtrs and grandtrs out of him. I just had a heifer drop a bull calf out of him @72lbs, and yes I know he carries a lot of milk, but then that was the point with the Herefords to begin with. BTW I like him enuf to look at buying a maternal 1/2 sister with what's left of my 401K.

Keep the dtrs out of the herefords and sell the rest. Then go back on them with an angus bull for terminal calves.

 

[double_B_ranch]

Alright again thanks for the replies. i guess i can give ya my whole rundown and then maybe that will help a lil more.im 23 and im just stating out my own herd. have worked with other cattle etc, but am now starting my own. ill have cows on a friends property fenced off separate from his cattle. the reason i want one good for charlios/limosiun commercial cows is because that's the mix of cows hes got and because of a run of bad luck his old her bull and the 2 yr old he was raising to replace the old bull both got put out of commission ( torn acl on old bull, idiot hired hand he has ran over 2 yr old back leg and snapped it in half). so i told him id go in half on a bull with him. this works out well for me because just starting out im not gonna have more then 10 cows this first year. my plan is im going to AI all the cows to Hereford bulls and keep back the heifers and sell the bulls as 18 month old.(that's plan as of now, well see if Murphy changes my plan). so i was going to use the Balancer (or possible Gelbvieh now) bull as a cleanup bull for the cows i AI'd and sell the calves out of the ones bred by this bull. i know its not smart to chase trends, especially in cattle, but im shooting for black white baldy calves because they seem to sell the best around here. this is the reason im choosing Herefords. but seeing as i haven't bought a single cow yet i guess im still looking at other possibility. i will just be running a commercial herd. thanks for all the replies its good we got internet now saves a lot time but also aint the only answer i have learned more then i could ever remember from people around me that do this for a living or side income. thanks

 

[VLS_GUY]

I take it the Charolais cows are actually Char cross. If so what is the other breeding in them? This would impact my choice of bull to use on the char cross cows. Also what Hereford bulls have you picked for use?

 

[3waycross]

Alright again thanks for the replies. i guess i can give ya my whole rundown and then maybe that will help a lil more.im 23 and im just stating out my own herd. have worked with other cattle etc, but am now starting my own. ill have cows on a friends property fenced off separate from his cattle. the reason i want one good for charlios/limosiun commercial cows is because that's the mix of cows hes got and because of a run of bad luck his old her bull and the 2 yr old he was raising to replace the old bull both got put out of commission ( torn acl on old bull, idiot hired hand he has ran over 2 yr old back leg and snapped it in half). so i told him id go in half on a bull with him. this works out well for me because just starting out im not gonna have more then 10 cows this first year. my plan is im going to AI all the cows to Hereford bulls and keep back the heifers and sell the bulls as 18 month old.(that's plan as of now, well see if Murphy changes my plan). so i was going to use the Balancer (or possible Gelbvieh now) bull as a cleanup bull for the cows i AI'd and sell the calves out of the ones bred by this bull. i know its not smart to chase trends, especially in cattle, but im shooting for black white baldy calves because they seem to sell the best around here. this is the reason im choosing Herefords. but seeing as i haven't bought a single cow yet i guess im still looking at other possibility. i will just be running a commercial herd. thanks for all the replies its good we got internet now saves a lot time but also aint the only answer i have learned more then i could ever remember from people around me that do this for a living or side income. thanks

There's a reason both Dun and I recommended that you use a GV bull on those hereford cows. If you AI them with a Homo Blk Gv bull you will get F-1 crosses with better milk, growth and maternal than the straight herefords. You are doint it backward. AI the herefords to the blk GV for 2 or 3 yrs, keep the heifers and sell the steers.

Or you can find out the hard way that your calves out of your cleanup bull outgrow and calve easier than the straight herefords. They will also most likely wean heavier.

 

[VLS_GUY]

I agree with 3 way cross on using the Gelbvieh on Hereford cows. Depending on the ancestry of the Car cross cows a balancer bull may work work as well. The bull 2 way linked to is a likely choice for your use in any event.

 

[dun]

My only problem with using a balancer is the percenatge of each breed. It isn;t a hard and fast rule that a balancer is 50:50 although when they first started that was the ration.

 

[double_B_ranch]

alright so if i get an F-1 cow with my Hereford/Gelbvieh cross then what would be the best thing to breed to them? my thinking was just that i know i read on here and talked to some people saying that if u breed homo black Balancer bull to straight bred Hereford u will get black baldy s almost every time. since ill just be selling commercial maybe i should go with Gelbvieh cows and AI them to Hereford and buy a different breed of bull to use as a cleanup. maybe even another Gelbvieh? alot of people around my area have Angus cattle and im not wanting to go that route for sure. i wont be starting out with more then 10 cows.

 

[Caustic Burno]

alright so if i get an F-1 cow with my Hereford/Gelbvieh cross then what would be the best thing to breed to them? my thinking was just that i know i read on here and talked to some people saying that if u breed homo black Balancer bull to straight bred Hereford u will get black baldy s almost every time. since ill just be selling commercial maybe i should go with Gelbvieh cows and AI them to Hereford and buy a different breed of bull to use as a cleanup. maybe even another Gelbvieh? alot of people around my area have Angus cattle and im not wanting to go that route for sure. i wont be starting out with more then 10 cows.

I had to smile at your homo crossbred bull never heard a crossbred being homo.You do know there are no black Gel's, Simm's etc, this is Angus genetics. You maximize hybred vigor up to a 3 way cross after that all bets are off to many in the woodpile. To truely maximize hybred vigor you need a quarter Brimmer in there.
To truely max hybred vigor example would be a Char bull on F-1 Tigers.

 

[Isomade]

alright so if i get an F-1 cow with my Hereford/Gelbvieh cross then what would be the best thing to breed to them? my thinking was just that i know i read on here and talked to some people saying that if u breed homo black Balancer bull to straight bred Hereford u will get black baldy s almost every time. since ill just be selling commercial maybe i should go with Gelbvieh cows and AI them to Hereford and buy a different breed of bull to use as a cleanup. maybe even another Gelbvieh? alot of people around my area have Angus cattle and im not wanting to go that route for sure. i wont be starting out with more then 10 cows.

I had to smile at your homo crossbred bull never heard a crossbred being homo.You do know there are no black Gel's, Simm's etc, this is Angus genetics. You maximize hybred vigor up to a 3 way cross after that all bets are off to many in the woodpile. To truely maximize hybred vigor you need a quarter Brimmer in there.
To truely max hybred vigor example would be a Char bull on F-1 Tigers.

:nod: . Char on tiger cows makes a nice calf.