Attention faster horses

[puzzled in oregon]

I gotta ask... does everybody think complicated or expensive is better than simple and cheap? What's wrong with salt blocks? Magnesium block in the spring before the grass comes on and a red block the rest of the year. Done and doner.

I suppose there are some places where they have some kind of weird soil that lacks what these blocks don't have... but I have yet to see it.

Grass tetany can also be a problem in my area, occasionally in the fall and definitely late winter/spring.
"but I have yet to see it", you are lucky.

 

[Travlr]

Grass tetany can also be a problem in my area, occasionally in the fall and definitely late winter/spring.
"but I have yet to see it", you are lucky.

That's what the yellow magnesium blocks are for... In Arkansas we'd put a mag block out before the gras came on and after that switched to a red block for the rest of the year.

 

[Dave]

I wonder if that's common in damp soils or places that get a lot of rain?

We have very low selenium and only about 10-12 inches of rain on good years.

 

[Son of Butch]

I gotta ask... does everybody think complicated or expensive is better than simple and cheap? What's wrong with salt blocks?

Salt is an essential mineral. There are also selenium "90" trace mineral salt blocks. 1 1/4 ounces per day = selenium required.
Check the label on your 'red' salt blocks they might be selenium "90" trace mineral salt blocks, but most cheap 'red' blocks don't included selenium, just copper, iron and iodine.

 

[Son of Butch]

Could they lick enough block to get what they need? It's hard to imagine.

IF you're talking trace selenium then as I posted 1.25 ounces per day of selenium "90" salt blocks the answer is yes.
IF you mean dicalcium phosphate ect. then no.

 

[faster horses]

Travlr, we thought as you did at one time.

We OURSELVES experienced what happens without a quality mineral program.
If you don't feed loose mineral, you are walking a tightrope. Something could change to cause a fall. It happened to us in 1988 and went on for 6 years. It took a mineral program to save our cowherd and our sanity. We even moved across the state and we had the same problems with our calves getting sick. It's a long story and I won't go into it here.

The University of Montana did extensive studies in MT and found the soil is lacking in copper and zinc. They are non-biased. They printed papers, did on-site visits, pulled blood, and their recommendation was to feed a year-round (loose)mineral program. They found sulfates in the water which ties up copper and zinc and compromises the immune system. The sulfates in the water was picking those guys pockets. They were leaving money on the table when considering death loss, breeding back, losing longevity in their cows, herd health (hoof rot, overeating, scours, etc was helped/eliminated by merely feeding a quality loose mineral). They picked that money back up by feeding mineral. I had a customer tell me when he was working on taxes, "my mineral column cost has gone up but my veterinary column has gone way down. My life is better because I'm no longer doctoring sick cattle". There are many benefits that make it feasible to feed loose mineral.

We can prove that a year-round mineral program adds weaning weight to the calves, and even more so when something is used to control flies. This isn't just ME saying this, this is feedback from ranch customers. They do what pays, they don't buy mineral because they like me. They buy it because it works. We have done ranch trials, not laboratory trials to document the difference between ranchers not feeding mineral and feeding loose mineral. Feeding loose mineral won out every time.

As for blocks...studies have been done that show that cattle, horses, etc cannot lick enough in a day to get their salt requirement. A kid at UW got a grant to count how many licks a cow will do before they get tired and walk away. It was like 2000 licks to get an ounce of salt, don't quote me on that because that was a long time ago. He sat in a corral with the only source of water. By that water was the salt blocks. He had a clicker and he clicked it every time a cow licked on the salt. Some places cattle will eat more salt, some places less due to the salt in the soil.

We have taken loads of soil samples over the years. Only on one ranch did we find the need for a custom mix mineral. All the other places a standard mineral worked fine. There are exceptions to everything.

When the grass dries up in late summer, the nutrients have gone out of the forage. A different formula needs to be used then. So basically 2 different levels of phos--4% phos can be used in spring, but later in the summer they overeat the 4% so our customers go to a 6% mineral. Phos is a limiter so 2% more phos will help with over consumption. Therefore, it's not complicated. Producers can add whatever they want to the basic formulas. For example, IGR, CTC, BioMoss, Magnesium...

We used our mineral consumption as a management tool. When the cattle started over consuming in a pasture, they were showing us the goodies were gone and we moved them to a fresh pasture they backed off the mineral.

In most cases, a good vitamin pack is included in mineral. Vit A, D3 and Vit E all contribute to a healthly herd.

Trvlr, you go ahead and do what you are doing. I can tell your mind is made up. I'm replying mostly to counteract some misconceptions in your posts.

Can cattle survive without adding loose mineral. Sure they can. They have. That's when fall calves weighed 300# and it didn't matter if several cows ended up open or died. Ranchers ran their yearlings til they were 2 years old back then. Today none of that it economically feasible.

We, along with many others, have seen and experienced first-hand the value of a quality year-round mineral program.


Edited to add: Western SD is high in selenium so mineral sold there is w/o selenium. Travlr, I thought you might know that since you lived near there.

 

[Travlr]

Salt is an essential mineral. There are also selenium "90" trace mineral salt blocks. 1 1/4 ounces per day = selenium required.
Check the label on your 'red' salt blocks they might be selenium "90" trace mineral salt blocks, but most cheap 'red' blocks don't included selenium, just copper, iron and iodine.

How much of that 1 1/4 ounces comes from normal eating... even in selenium "deficient" areas?

An ounce is a very large amount for a trace mineral. Brazil nuts have 544 mcg selenium per ounce. Regardless of where you live, beef cattle require a minimum of 0.1 ppm
of selenium in their daily diet [National Research Council (NRC) recommendation]. For a mature cow [1,400 pound (lb.)], that is an intake of about 1 milligram (mg) of selenium per day. One milligram is a lot less than an ounce. And too much selenium has detrimental effects, too.

One milligram is .00003527 of an ounce.

 

[Travlr]

Travlr, we thought as you did at one time.

We OURSELVES experienced what happens without a quality mineral program.
If you don't feed loose mineral, you are walking a tightrope. Something could change to cause a fall. It happened to us in 1988 and went on for 6 years. It took a mineral program to save our cowherd and our sanity. We even moved across the state and we had the same problems with our calves getting sick. It's a long story and I won't go into it here.

The University of Montana did extensive studies in MT and found the soil is lacking in copper and zinc. They are non-biased. They printed papers, did on-site visits, pulled blood, and their recommendation was to feed a year-round (loose)mineral program. They found sulfates in the water which ties up copper and zinc and compromises the immune system. The sulfates in the water was picking those guys pockets. They were leaving money on the table when considering death loss, breeding back, losing longevity in their cows, herd health (hoof rot, overeating, scours, etc was helped/eliminated by merely feeding a quality loose mineral). They picked that money back up by feeding mineral. I had a customer tell me when he was working on taxes, "my mineral column cost has gone up but my veterinary column has gone way down. My life is better because I'm no longer doctoring sick cattle". There are many benefits that make it feasible to feed loose mineral.

We can prove that a year-round mineral program adds weaning weight to the calves, and even more so when something is used to control flies. This isn't just ME saying this, this is feedback from ranch customers. They do what pays, they don't buy mineral because they like me. They buy it because it works. We have done ranch trials, not laboratory trials to document the difference between ranchers not feeding mineral and feeding loose mineral. Feeding loose mineral won out every time.

As for blocks...studies have been done that show that cattle, horses, etc cannot lick enough in a day to get their salt requirement. A kid at UW got a grant to count how many licks a cow will do before they get tired and walk away. It was like 2000 licks to get an ounce of salt, don't quote me on that because that was a long time ago. He sat in a corral with the only source of water. By that water was the salt blocks. He had a clicker and he clicked it every time a cow licked on the salt. Some places cattle will eat more salt, some places less due to the salt in the soil.

We have taken loads of soil samples over the years. Only on one ranch did we find the need for a custom mix mineral. All the other places a standard mineral worked fine. There are exceptions to everything.

When the grass dries up in late summer, the nutrients have gone out of the forage. A different formula needs to be used then. So basically 2 different levels of phos--4% phos can be used in spring, but later in the summer they overeat the 4% so our customers go to a 6% mineral. Phos is a limiter so 2% more phos will help with over consumption. Therefore, it's not complicated. Producers can add whatever they want to the basic formulas. For example, IGR, CTC, BioMoss, Magnesium...

We used our mineral consumption as a management tool. When the cattle started over consuming in a pasture, they were showing us the goodies were gone and we moved them to a fresh pasture they backed off the mineral.

In most cases, a good vitamin pack is included in mineral. Vit A, D3 and Vit E all contribute to a healthly herd.

Trvlr, you go ahead and do what you are doing. I can tell your mind is made up. I'm replying mostly to counteract some misconceptions in your posts.

Can cattle survive without adding loose mineral. Sure they can. They have. That's when fall calves weighed 300# and it didn't matter if several cows ended up open or died. Ranchers ran their yearlings til they were 2 years old back then. Today none of that it economically feasible.

We, along with many others, have seen and experienced first-hand the value of a quality year-round mineral program.


Edited to add: Western SD is high in selenium so mineral sold there is w/o selenium. Travlr, I thought you might know that since you lived near there.

It appears you may have missed some of what was said, or misconstrued it.

1. I've always used minerals.
2. In block form.
3. Cheap and sufficient.
4. And my calves weaned at 600#.
5. Personal experience three states. And witnessed in many more.

All I'm saying is that a lot of people think more is better, and more expensive is best... and there are all kinds of people in the world that will cultivate fears to sell product. Especially in politics and the health industries. The cattle business has their share of charlatans too. And when someone has an actual problem... which apparently you did... your story gets told and enforces the idea that everyone would benefit regardless of whether they have a problem.

All I'm advising is that people be circumspect and find out if they need more and should spend more before they jump on that solution. It's hard enough to make money without throwing money away that you don't need to be spending. (AND again... this does NOT mean YOU or your situation)

For every complex problem there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.

 

[Son of Butch]

How much of that 1 1/4 ounces comes from normal eating... even in selenium "deficient" areas?

What are you talking about?
1.25 ounces of trace mineral salt is probably about 1.20 ounces of pure salt and probably contains about 30 mgs of selenium,
$150,000 a ton = $4.69 oz mixed into 50 lbs of salt. We're talking about tiny trace amounts mixed into the salt. Check the label.

Gold deficient area = 0 gold
Selenium deficient = 0 selenium

 

[Ebenezer]

"2. In block form.
3. Cheap and sufficient."

What folks are trying to tell you is that blocks and assumed sufficiency are not parallels. And as most know, the form of mineral or vitamin has a huge impact on bioavailability. Then add in the issue of antagonists in the form of other minerals in the mix or in the forges. It is a complex issue but a proper mineral program is not just weaning weights but immune systems, hoof health, reproductions and so much more. I just read an abstract on a study that got postponed by USDA on various levels of iodine supplementation and subsequent tear concentrations to deal with pinkeye. It got sidelined due to covid but is interesting.

And unless the footnotes tell differently, the units per day are for an AU of 1000 pounds so that a 1400 pound animal is 1.4 AUs to need 1.4X the recommended minimum. Continental breeds need more of some minerals than British breeds. I'd have to dig up notes to find the exact info. Not an exact science and totally soil and forage related.

 

[Travlr]

What are you talking about?
1.25 ounces of trace mineral salt is probably about 1.20 ounces of pure salt and probably contains about 30 mgs of selenium,
$150,000 a ton = $4.69 oz mixed into 50 lbs of salt. We're talking about tiny trace amounts mixed into the salt. Check the label.

Gold deficient area = 0 gold
Selenium deficient = 0 selenium

You wrote, "1 1/4 ounces per day = selenium required." Sorry I construed that as 1 1/4 ounces of selenium.

I'm going to assume you can see how that was easily misunderstood. If not, sue me.

 

[Travlr]

"2. In block form.
3. Cheap and sufficient."

What folks are trying to tell you is that blocks and assumed sufficiency are not parallels.

Absolutely... and thus the need to do your due diligence if you're having some kind of problem that would trace back to insufficient minerals.

I'm puzzled by all the upset. All I'm advising is least cost option instead of most cost automatically and without reason.

It's beginning to sound like I drove up to a Porche convention in a farm truck and people got upset because I laughed when someone complained that they got a ticket for driving their expensive car over the speed limit. My farm truck will get me from here to there just as fast as a Porche, and I'll spend less to get from here to there.

 

[Ebenezer]

"It's beginning to sound like I drove up to a Porche convention in a farm truck..." more like a second hand bike or if it is raining - a moped.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I'm not saying that there might be some benefit to loose mineral... somewhere. But it seems like a lot of people get caught up in complicated solutions to simple (or largely non-existent) problems and the... more you spend, the better the solution... syndrome.

My point being that all inputs accumulate in an industry with small returns on investment. I've owned cattle in three states and visited lots of other places and I have my doubts that the local, more expensive options are an improvement for most people. A lot of people are sold on the idea that various things are "cheap insurance" when all they really are is more expense to assuage some kind of fear they are being sold.

I've heard there are soils in Michigan that have some weak mineral contents, and I'm sure there are other places too. But somehow cattle thrive all over the world, and have thrived in most of the U.S. before expensive minerals, pretty much forever.

But as you say, you do you and I'll just keep questioning anyone selling me something.

Some cattle and some breeds need a lot more feed and mineral than others. There are breeds developed w/o any mineral supplementation. Another approach to is to cull individuals harder, particularly for hair coat. An indirect approach is to provide more forbs and legumes in your feeds. For example - - alfalfa mix hay is a supplement.

In theory - - you sample your feed and develop a custom mineral mix to complement it. In reality - - most producers vary their feed a lot during the year and don't buy enough mineral to interest the custom mineral blenders.

Yes - - many people overspend on heavily advertised loose mineral and feel good doing it. Mixing your own loose mineral is an option if you have a shovel or a small electric cement mixer. Often a white mixing salt, Selenium 90, copper sulfate, organic iodine, blend is used in this area. Better hair coats and less foot rot are the most obvious benefits.

We provide injectable Multimin on a visual as required basis when doing pre breeding vaccinations. They have data on it's effectiveness. You need to allow for at least 3 weeks between an injection and turning bulls out.

 

[Silver]

Well @Travlr I get in trouble over this argument all the time too. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you don't know if/what you are or are not lacking what are you doing buying mineral?
Buying mineral could actually exaggerate a problem. Mineral salespeople don't like to tell you that.
I have been feeding a mineral for 3 years now that is formulated for my region but not my ranch specifically. So far the results are mixed. I have noticed a slight uptick in calves born in first cycle and in first 30 days. Over 70% in first cycle and 90% in 30 days. But we always did well in this regard. We also always had very good conception rates. Herd health has not changed, weaning weights have improved slightly but have been going up since before mineral.
More grass and better grass management gets more credit from me than the mineral but I'm going to continue with it for now.

 

[Nesikep]

I used to have trace mineral problems, I noticed it in one particularly high producing cow, if she was around the bull shortly after calving she'd breed right back, if she was exposed 4 months after calving she'd have a terrible time conceiving.. so I started to do research because it sounded like she was getting run down on SOMETHING. After studying all sorts of mineral deficiencies and how they manifest, I came up with Copper, Selenium and Phosphorus... then I got a blood test done and in fact she was TERRIBLY low on those (like 1/3rd what there ought to be as a minimum)
Now I had been feeding EXPENSIVE trace mineral salt blocks, and switched to loose mineral that is FORMULATED FOR MY AREA (very key point) This is why I don't put faith in brand names, I may be wrong, but I doubt Purina (aka Nestle) troubles themselves with getting it right for a small market.
My trace blocks were 100ppm Selenium and 2500mg/kg Copper, no phosphorus, and about 95% salt
My loose mineral is 100ppm Selenium and 2500mg/kg Copper, 18% phosphorus and very little salt.. Recommended consumption is 2-4oz/day/head.. In order to get the same amount of Se and Cu from a block, they'd have to consume 20 times as much, or about 1/10th of a salt block per day per cow.. so spend their whole day licking that block.. and they still wouldn't get any phosphorus.
Grain is high in phosphorus, but we don't feed any.. Milk (and bone) has lots of phosphorus in it, but it has to come from somewhere, You give the cow what she needs and you do get better growth in the calves, and a healthier cow.

I also tailor my mineral to the season, I have a high selenium with lower phosphorus mineral for before calving, and a lower selenium high phosphorus mineral for after calving, I still use the odd salt block, usually after weaning when the cows are on holidays.

Want to know if your area is high or low in selenium? https://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2017/5118/sir20175118_element.php?el=34

 

[Davemk]

I gotta ask... does everybody think complicated or expensive is better than simple and cheap? What's wrong with salt blocks? Magnesium block in the spring before the grass comes on and a red block the rest of the year. Done and doner.

I suppose there are some places where they have some kind of weird soil that lacks what these blocks don't have... but I have yet to see it.

Here in our neck of the woods selenium is a problem or I should say lack of selenium. It leads to open cows that should not be open.

 

[faster horses]

Absolutely... and thus the need to do your due diligence if you're having some kind of problem that would trace back to insufficient minerals.

I'm puzzled by all the upset. All I'm advising is least cost option instead of most cost automatically and without reason.

It's beginning to sound like I drove up to a Porche convention in a farm truck and people got upset because I laughed when someone complained that they got a ticket for driving their expensive car over the speed limit. My farm truck will get me from here to there just as fast as a Porche, and I'll spend less to get from here to there.

"I'm puzzled by all the upset. All I'm advising is least cost option instead of most cost automatically and without reason". What you are doing is speaking to a bunch of producers who don't want to take a chance on having problems that could be easily solved by feeding a loose mineral. The average age of livestock producers is near 60 years old. They don't want to doctor sick cattle. You don't want to feed mineral, fine. Others might and do feed loose mineral; your business, their business.

FWIW we have taken grass samples in a good part of SE Montana. Remember, I mentioned that. ONE RANCH--(1)--had to have a custom mineral made. A good mineral sales manager/dealer won't just SELL you mineral. They will work to earn the business. They can show research, take grass samples, soil samples, run forage samples, take bunk samples, run fecals, all FREE. It's not like you are buying mineral from a retail store and pack out a bag or two at a time from a sales clerk who hasn't any idea what he is selling.

I'd like to add one more thing: the heifer calves retained from cows that were on a year round mineral program do better in many ways-better health and body condition score, are a couple of examples.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

I don't believe I could possibly pay to much for a bag of minerals that has the potential
to get me 6 to 8 hrs more sleep per night when Itty Bitty is due to calve.