article by Dr. Jan Bonsma

[JHH]

I finally got a chance to read the article through. Thank you for posting it.

The thing that jumped out at me was the 1967 210 day weaning weights of a normal group at 374 lb and a "high" feed rate group at 338 lb.

I don't know what conditions these calves were raised on but for both of these groups to be in the mid-300 lb range is startling.

As a beginner I am not familiar with weaning weights in other conditions, maybe western dryland range, but in my conditions I expect my 205 day weaning weights to be very close to or above 600 lb. even for heifers. Steers should be close to 700 lb.

What has changed since 1967? Or am I missing something?

Jim

Here is where your numbers come into play and genetics. If you want bigger WW and YW you will most likely get later maturing ,what I call slab sided, calves with lots of leg and no muscle. This is not the case all the time but works this way for me most of the time.Your case is you have a very good bull and had a very good friend or teacher help pic your herefords. Also grass genetics verses grain.

If we keep selecting for something we usually get it but may give up something else.

My thoughts are AVERAGE, and MODERATE. But that is just me.

Anyone else? Ideas

 

[ANAZAZI]

[/quote]

Here is where your numbers come into play and genetics. If you want bigger WW and YW you will most likely get later maturing ,what I call slab sided, calves with lots of leg and no muscle. This is not the case all the time but works this way for me most of the time.Your case is you have a very good bull and had a very good friend or teacher help pic your herefords. Also grass genetics verses grain.

If we keep selecting for something we usually get it but may give up something else.

My thoughts are AVERAGE, and MODERATE. But that is just me.

Anyone else? Ideas[/quote]

Agree!

 

[Idaman]

Here is where your numbers come into play and genetics. If you want bigger WW and YW you will most likely get later maturing ,what I call slab sided, calves with lots of leg and no muscle. This is not the case all the time but works this way for me most of the time.Your case is you have a very good bull and had a very good friend or teacher help pic your herefords. Also grass genetics verses grain.

If we keep selecting for something we usually get it but may give up something else.

My thoughts are AVERAGE, and MODERATE. But that is just me.

Anyone else? Ideas[/quote]

Agree![/quote]

I also agree but with at least one qualification.

As the breeds in general have increased their mature size so much haven't the perceptions of average and moderate changed in the same direction? A frame size 3.5 to 4 might have been at one time average and moderate but now probably a 5 to 5.5 is so considered. We need a standard to compare to that is not influenced by the latest fads of the day.

We run nearly all black bulls on our commercial cows due to market dictates. We move the cattle every few weeks to another pasture farther up the mountain. If it stays hot by the third move the first of July we won't have any black bulls left in the bunch. They have all pulled off the cows and holed up in the bushes along some creek. That is why we have to include a few Hereford bulls in the bunch or we wouldn't get a calf sired after that date.

Then we can spend a great deal of time over the next six months trying to find those blacks and fight them all the way home. To be fair the Herefords do stay with the cows and breed but they tend not to want to come home in the fall but would rather stay high in the mountains in the snow where we ususally find them from the air.

 

[brentcu]

The original pages/photos are gone, so I went on a search to find the article. For those that come to the thread late (like me) it appears on Gearld Fry's site here: http://www.americanherbataurus.com/arti ... efords.pdf

 

[novatech]

Here is where your numbers come into play and genetics. If you want bigger WW and YW you will most likely get later maturing ,what I call slab sided, calves with lots of leg and no muscle. This is not the case all the time but works this way for me most of the time.Your case is you have a very good bull and had a very good friend or teacher help pic your herefords. Also grass genetics verses grain.

I may be having a little trouble understanding what you are saying here.
Is "slab sided" the same as what we call flat sided low capacity?
I always thought early maturing was high WW and late maturing was high YW. So what is early maturing?
If you have high WW and/or high YW, how can you have no muscle?
What are grass genetics? (That alone could start a new thread.) If you mean high capacity vs flat sided then I agree.

 

[SRBeef]

Here is where your numbers come into play and genetics. If you want bigger WW and YW you will most likely get later maturing ,what I call slab sided, calves with lots of leg and no muscle. This is not the case all the time but works this way for me most of the time.Your case is you have a very good bull and had a very good friend or teacher help pic your herefords. Also grass genetics verses grain.

If we keep selecting for something we usually get it but may give up something else.

My thoughts are AVERAGE, and MODERATE. But that is just me.

Anyone else? Ideas

Agree![/quote]

I also agree but with at least one qualification.

As the breeds in general have increased their mature size so much haven't the perceptions of average and moderate changed in the same direction? A frame size 3.5 to 4 might have been at one time average and moderate but now probably a 5 to 5.5 is so considered. We need a standard to compare to that is not influenced by the latest fads of the day.

We run nearly all black bulls on our commercial cows due to market dictates. We move the cattle every few weeks to another pasture farther up the mountain. If it stays hot by the third move the first of July we won't have any black bulls left in the bunch. They have all pulled off the cows and holed up in the bushes along some creek. That is why we have to include a few Hereford bulls in the bunch or we wouldn't get a calf sired after that date.

Then we can spend a great deal of time over the next six months trying to find those blacks and fight them all the way home. To be fair the Herefords do stay with the cows and breed but they tend not to want to come home in the fall but would rather stay high in the mountains in the snow where we ususally find them from the air.[/quote]

Nice to see these words from Idaman from 2 years ago. RIP.

Jim

 

[R V]

Does anyone know where I could find a copy of "Man Must Measure ... Livestock Production" by Jan Bosma? I have been looking for about a year with no success.
Thanks!
Ron

 

[jhambley]

Try contacting Gerald Fry

http://www.bovineengineering.com/books.html