Are my cows too small ?

[Stocker Steve]

I just read up on how to increase my pasture forage production by 47%, and on how to reduce my average cow size by 21%, which means I need to almost double the size of my herd to utilize the forage. :shock: Would it be simpler to just increase the size of my cows and avoid the all this under stocking aggravation?

 

[ANAZAZI]

I just read up on how to increase my pasture forage production by 47%, and on how to reduce my average cow size by 21%, which means I need to almost double the size of my herd to utilize the forage. :shock: Would it be simpler to just increase the size of my cows and avoid the all this under stocking aggravation?

Wait, what? Leave your cows the way they are, just keep more heifers, you know how to cull them later grasshopper <(")

 

[Luca Brasi]

You mean that Dexters won't revolutionize the world by allowing you to run 17 on the same pasture as one normal beef breed?

 

[Stocker Steve]

just keep more heifers,

I broke my calf puller on a purchased heifer with a blocky BA bull calf. Sounds like I need replace it (unless I switch to Dexters). :cowboy:

 

[ANAZAZI]

just keep more heifers,

I broke my calf puller on a purchased heifer with a blocky BA bull calf. Sounds like I need replace it (unless I switch to Dexters). :cowboy:

Did I tell you to buy heifers, Grasshopper? :banana: :banana: :banana:

 

[Aaron]

Don't screw up a herd trying to match what someone says in some article. Use what works and just increase/decrease cow numbers. You don't want to maximize your production because it is not sustainable. One drought and your left selling a lot of good cows into a buyers market, or buying expensive feed to keep them. Best to leave yourself some room for adjustment. I will have a bunch of pasture underutilized this year, but I don't see it as a loss, but rather a cushion.

 

[Nesikep]

If small cows were so efficient you would never find a Holstein in a dairy barn.

What Aaron says!!.. I could possibly hold a few more cows if I stopped selling hay, and worked the land just a little harder, but sometimes that can come around and bite you in the arse, and then you have no hay customers left, etc.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Don't screw up a herd trying to match what someone says in some article. Use what works and just increase/decrease cow numbers. You don't want to maximize your production because it is not sustainable. One drought and your left selling a lot of good cows into a buyers market, or buying expensive feed to keep them. Best to leave yourself some room for adjustment.

Trying to stock up for compounding production improvements can be a bitch. I cornered the local market for broken mouth Herefords, but Excel says I am still short 36 cows, if it rains... I think I would be better off resting some pasture rather than growing grain at a loss. Plan to seed down another 40 to 50 acres in April.

 

[AllForage]

Paralysis by analysis.. Quit reading SGF, your eyes tell you what's working or not


Btw, how do you change cow size when they are mostly purchased at a barn?

 

[hurleyjd]

Takes as much forage to graze two 900 lb cows as one 1500 lb.Two 900 lb cows should produce at least 1200 lbs of calves compared to 800 lbs for the 1500 lb cow

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Those are some pretty good 900 pound cows. Jersey bred to char?

 

[greybeard]

I just read up on how to increase my pasture forage production by 47%, and on how to reduce my average cow size by 21%, which means I need to almost double the size of my herd to utilize the forage. :shock: Would it be simpler to just increase the size of my cows and avoid the all this under stocking aggravation?

Or, you could get just one REALLY, REALLY BIG cow....

 

[Stocker Steve]

Or, you could get just one REALLY, REALLY BIG cow....

Some big Limi girls came through the ring this week. They averaged just under a ton.
You could buy these, cross them with a low line semen, and then write an magazine article on efficiency. :banana:

 

[Stocker Steve]

how do you change cow size when they are mostly purchased at a barn?

We have added a lot of cows in recent years. We do not have the cash to just buy all smaller premium popular color bred heifers. We are not line breeders. We are not perfect sorters. We are not using low line or toad bulls. We learned how to receive in cattle from our back grounding days. So, we use a three step sell buy type process for that years additions:

1) You buy neglected or unpopular girls, put them on good forage for the summer, and use a 4.2 to 5.5 frame bull. The cows will sync up their calving dates and gain pounds while raising a calf. So in step one the cows actually get bigger. (A classic trade here is to buy thin red or wf second calvers and put a black bull on them.)
2) You cull hard the first fall. A goal here is to sell well conditioned breds (that do not work for you) for more than you paid for them. So in step two the average cow get smaller after the trailer pulls away. (I had one pig gain 390# in one year.)
3) You make variation work for you by retaining the moderate heifers the following year, while selling the big uns. So in step three the cows get smaller yet.

This will not result in 1000 pound line bred cows, but you will keep the neighbors guessing while Bud Williams smiles down on you.

 

[ddd75]

or be like my buddy and buy a bunch of belties and try to cross them with black angus bulls.. he already has to pull every calf with those little tiny cows..

 

[M.Magis]

Takes as much forage to graze two 900 lb cows as one 1500 lb.Two 900 lb cows should produce at least 1200 lbs of calves compared to 800 lbs for the 1500 lb cow

You make that statement as if it's an absolute. I would think 900 lb cows weaning 600 lb calves would be the exception, not the rule? I'm also not sure I'm convinced those two cows would only eat as much as a single 1500 lb cow. Have there been studies (not singular) to back those claims up? If true, we'd all be raising minis and lowlines.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Takes as much forage to graze two 900 lb cows as one 1500 lb.Two 900 lb cows should produce at least 1200 lbs of calves compared to 800 lbs for the 1500 lb cow

You make that statement as if it's an absolute. I would think 900 lb cows weaning 600 lb calves would be the exception, not the rule? I'm also not sure I'm convinced those two cows would only eat as much as a single 1500 lb cow. Have there been studies (not singular) to back those claims up? If true, we'd all be raising minis and lowlines.

The number are certainly wrong but smaller cows tend to be more produtive than bigger cows. 9 900lb cows eat about the same as 6 1500lb cows. 900lb cows probably wean 500 to 550lb calves, while 1500lb cows probably wean 650 to 700lb calves.
That gives us:
4500 to 4950lbs vs 3900 to 4200lbs, a difference of 600 to 750lbs. One more calf basically.

 

[M.Magis]

Those numbers make more sense to me. I agree with smaller cows (within reason) being more efficient, it's just that the numbers seemed exaggerated to me.

 

[Jogeephus]

Just raise the Dexters and AI with high end Charolais then your grazing will be the last thing on your mind.

 

[AllForage]

how do you change cow size when they are mostly purchased at a barn?

We have added a lot of cows in recent years. We do not have the cash to just buy all smaller premium popular color bred heifers. We are not line breeders. We are not perfect sorters. We are not using low line or toad bulls. We learned how to receive in cattle from our back grounding days. So, we use a three step sell buy type process for that years additions:

1) You buy neglected or unpopular girls, put them on good forage for the summer, and use a 4.2 to 5.5 frame bull. The cows will sync up their calving dates and gain pounds while raising a calf. So in step one the cows actually get bigger. (A classic trade here is to buy thin red or wf second calvers and put a black bull on them.)
2) You cull hard the first fall. A goal here is to sell well conditioned breds (that do not work for you) for more than you paid for them. So in step two the average cow get smaller after the trailer pulls away. (I had one pig gain 390# in one year.)
3) You make variation work for you by retaining the moderate heifers the following year, while selling the big uns. So in step three the cows get smaller yet.

This will not result in 1000 pound line bred cows, but you will keep the neighbors guessing while Bud Williams smiles down on you.

Sounds pretty thought out...so what's was the point of the question then???

Only critique I could have is your buying pool could dry up or prices screw you, bring in disease, you need ADD to keep this up. Sounds like a good case of sales barn a$$ to go with it. Maybe a big gut from eating the food in their cafe too

I will remember the 4.2 as a magic frame starting point