Another shot dead by Mpls police

[greybeard]

Sorry, I could not find the thread where this was previously discussed..

Amber Guyger, the former Dallas policewoman that shot and killed a man in his own apartment was indicted today by grand jury on murder charge. (not manslaughter)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/30/us/dalla ... index.html

A police officer who claimed she killed a Dallas man in his own apartment in the mistaken belief that he was in her home was indicted Friday on a murder charge, authorities said.

The indictment of Amber Guyger comes more than two months after she was arrested in the shooting death of Botham Shem Jean at the Dallas apartment complex where both lived -- a killing that sparked days of protests.
Guyger was arrested after the September shooting and charged with manslaughter by the Texas Rangers, the lead investigative agency, Dallas County District Attorney Faith Johnson said at a news conference.

When asked why the grand jury indicted Guyger on the more serious offense of murder, Johnson replied, "We presented the evidence and we explained the law."
Johnson said murder constitutes someone "intentionally and knowingly" committing a crime, whereas manslaughter involves "recklessly doing something."

"At the moment of the shooting it was a knowing ... offense," Johnson said.
The court records Friday showed both a manslaughter and murder charge entered in Guyger's file, but a clerk of court clerk confirmed that the murder charge is the one prosecutors are moving forward on.

The prosecutor's office appears to be treating this one just as it would if it had been any other person that pulled the trigger. So did the grand jury.[thumbs up]

For those that don't like CNN's version:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/dallas-office ... d=59525031
https://www.foxnews.com/us/grand-jury-d ... was-murder

 

[Bright Raven]

Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.

 

[bball]

Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.

I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him? This is the part where a quality (if you believe such a thing exists) defense attorney could really muddy the waters. I figured a voluntary manslaughter charge was a lock. Murder could possibly present a challenge.

 

[Bright Raven]

Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.

I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him? This is the part where a quality (if you believe such a thing exists) defense attorney could really muddy the waters. I figured a voluntary manslaughter charge was a lock. Murder could possibly present a challenge.

It will be a challenge. I know some attorneys are going to be excited to watch the defense strategy.

 

[greybeard]

Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.

I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him?

I'm not sure the prosecutor will go that route, tho he/she may if there was enough previous bad blood between the 2 that she may have had that plan from the get go.

I believe the prosecution will present that she at least intended to murder him from the moment she saw him in his apt that day even if she didn't recognize.

It's an apt...a rented place. How did she know it wasn't the building super or a maintenance guy or a contractor, an exterminator, or a city fire inspector or any of a 1/2 dozen other workers that routinely enter rented domiciles? (yes, the 'building' is supposed to give advance notice, but it was my experience that wasn't always followed thru on)

 

[bball]

Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.

I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him?

I'm not sure the prosecutor will go that route, tho he/she may if there was enough previous bad blood between the 2 that she may have had that plan from the get go.

I believe the prosecution will present that she at least intended to murder him from the moment she saw him in his apt that day even if she didn't recognize.

It's an apt...a rented place. How did she know it wasn't the building super or a maintenance guy or a contractor, an exterminator, or a city fire inspector or any of a 1/2 dozen other workers that routinely enter rented domiciles? (yes, the 'building' is supposed to give advance notice, but it was my experience that wasn't always followed thru on)

That will be a very important aspect- did the 2 have previous, negative interactions? This I do not know or if it has been publicly presented.
I do know that intent can be a difficult concept to prove in court. Will be interested to see both teams approach to this.

 

[greybeard]

Wish I could find the original discussion thread, but it may have been deleted because of the recent tech difficulties or because of interaction by "the usual suspects", but it seems I remember people saying she had previously had some issues with the guy because of noise.
She reportedly lived in an apt right or nearly right below him.

 

[greybeard]

How much time is needed to qualify for "with malice aforethought"?
Days, hours, minutes....seconds?

 

[slick4591]

Makes sense. Shooting a man in his own home dictates that level of an indictment.

I thought it interesting. Do you think the prosecutor will have any challenge proving she went to his apartment with the INTENT to murder him? This is the part where a quality (if you believe such a thing exists) defense attorney could really muddy the waters. I figured a voluntary manslaughter charge was a lock. Murder could possibly present a challenge.

I'm with ya. At this point her defense is out there. Way too late in the game to change it IMHO. The intent part of the culpable mental state will be the hardest to prove and they better have charged lesser offenses in the indictment. The State in their news conference yesterday basically said she "intended" to shoot the guy. Yes, she surely did, but unless they can show she had her mind made up to shoot the occupant before she opened the door they may well have overcharged her.

 

[Dave]

Between Murder 1 and Man slaughter is Murder 2. That would be my guess as to what the prosecution is going after. She didn't plan ahead to kill him but when she pulled her gun she did intend to do it.

 

[greybeard]

Between Murder 1 and Man slaughter is Murder 2. That would be my guess as to what the prosecution is going after. She didn't plan ahead to kill him but when she pulled her gun she did intend to do it.

Which is why I asked what the 'time' qualification for 'malice aforethought' is.
What does "ahead' of time mean?

 

[bball]

Between Murder 1 and Man slaughter is Murder 2. That would be my guess as to what the prosecution is going after. She didn't plan ahead to kill him but when she pulled her gun she did intend to do it.

Which is why I asked what the 'time' qualification for 'malice aforethought' is.
What does "ahead' of time mean?

This is what wiki has for malice aforethought:
In most common law jurisdictions, the American Law Institute's Model Penal Code, and in the various U.S. state statutes, which have codified homicide definitions, the term has been abandoned or substantially revised. The four states of mind that are now recognized as constituting "malice aforethought" in murder prosecutions are as follows:[18]

-intent to kill
-intent to inflict serious bodily injury
-extremely reckless disregard for the value of
human life
-felony murder rule

 

[greybeard]

I'm glad, that I haven't shot and killed everything and everybody that I 'perceived' as a threat to my life and well being.
I probably would have been bottle feeding a lot of calves, since I wouldn't have many momma cows left, at least 2 bulls would have gotten shot thru the X, the dog at the end of the lane that snarls at me every time I ride by there on my bike or 4 wheeler, would have been dead long ago, and every idiot driver that eased over too close to me on the 4 lane.

I'm equally glad I wasn't taught to do so, even in the Marines.. just to ensure my own safety.
First responders I always thought, were taught and understood they were taking a job that required putting their lives on the line for innocent law abiding citizens...not the other way around.
When did that change and who the blazes are the idiots responsible for teaching them the latter instead of the former?

 

[mwj]

Pick any civilian of any color in the same situation. Kill an unarmed person in there own home and say you were overworked and tired. How long would it take for them to be charged?

 

[greybeard]

Pick any civilian of any color in the same situation. Kill an unarmed person in there own home and say you were overworked and tired. How long would it take for them to be charged?

About as long as it took to read that and type this.

 

[Son of Butch]

The jury reached a verdict in the trial of officer Muhamed Noor today in the shooting death of
Justine Damond. Officer Noor guilty on 2 of 3 charges... 2nd degree murder - Not Guilty

3rd degree murder - Guilty
2nd degree manslaughter - Guilty

Noor was taken into custody and sentencing will done another day.

 

[Son of Butch]

Horrible thing.

Horrible... ? . guilty on 2 counts... so you disagree with the verdict because you thought Noor
should've been found Not Guilty on all 3 counts because he was innocent or bcs a police officer?

 

[greybeard]

Or maybe he meant it was a horrible thing that the un-neccessary and unprovoked death of an innocent person happened?

 

[wbvs58]

Just tragic all round.

Ken

 

[Son of Butch]

What I thought was horrible was the behavior of the investigating police sargent after she arrived
on the scene. It came out at trial that she turned her body camera off and on 3 times at the scene,
to make sure neither of the officers statements about what happened would be recorded.
Allowing them a full day to get their stories straight in private for the official report.
She also signed off on having the car cleaned, before a different investigator put a stop to that
by having it impounded the next morning. 51 sets of finger prints were found on the car.
None of them belonging to Justine. Which kind of poked a hole in the official story that the
victim came up and slapped the car, causing officer Noor to react as he did.

To me this sargent's actions and behavior could be viewed 3 ways, corrupt (unlikely)
incompetent (likely) or arrogant in believing police officers have protection not afforded to others.
In effect intentionally or unintentionally elevating police officers to a position above the law.