Animal Welfare

[randiliana]

I see a lot of talk about when and where to call the vet, what should we do, I don't call the vet because........ The way I see it is that if you have decided to own and care for these or any other animals, you take on the responsibility of doing THAT to the best of your ability. Just because an animal may not be worth that trip to the vet does not mean that she deserves to lay there and suffer. It does not mean that you pull a humungous calf out of her (that you know should be a c-section). It does not mean that you get on here and argue over the why's, where's, who's and how's. I am sorry, but it is my belief that if you decide to own an animal whether it is a pet, or a livestock animal it IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to take care of that animal NO MATTER WHAT. If you cannot or will not do so then that animal should be put down or passed on to someone who will care for it, PERIOD.

If you don't know what is wrong with an animal, at least CALL the vet, give him the symptoms and ask him what he thinks. If you don't like your local vet call a different one. That phone call will not cost you ANYTHING more than the 5 minutes on the phone. Plus talking to someone in REAL time will certainly increse the chances of the problem being diagnosed BEFORE it is fatal!! By all means, come on here and ask. There are many of us out here that will do our best to help you out, but please, if you have a problem call the vet first. At least that way, you can be doing something for the animal in question while you are waiting for someone online to respond to you.

Case in point, we have an older holstein cow. Today this old girl decides to calve, and it is quite a large calf and she doesn't dialate completely. Now this cow is worth NOTHING more than the $75 BSE test in the end. There is NO resale value in her whatsoever. However, she is pregnant, and alive, and so is the calf in her. We have 2 choices here: 1 is to take her to the vet to have the calf either pulled or c-sectioned and 2 is to simply shoot her, and perhaps get the calf alive out of her after that. Anyways, we did haul the old girl to the vet, and we got a humungous calf out of her ALIVE(it was pulled, not a c-section). Hopefully, she will be able to raise him and perhaps another calf for the summer. Maybe even breed back (although, I wouldn't bank on that). When we decided to buy this cow, we knew what her value would be, and that is based totally in how many calves we can put on her (looks like 2 only). However, in buying her we took on the responsibility to care for her to the best of our ability, which in my mind says that we cause her no undue PAIN OR STRESS, which means we get her to the vet if necessary, or we put her down.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I have performed about everthing that can be performed on a cow, but I didn't get out there and start whittling away. It takes years, and being mentored by vets and experienced cattlemen alike.

Read where the average American has an IQ of 90 and I don't imagine Canadian is much better. Thats kind of slow witted to be performing surgery and doctoring. But after reading some of these post from I stood there with my hands in my pocket while old Belle was in labor with a breech to post on a chat board. To can I brand my cow to how do you wash my cow to any house training tips.

Call the vet Forrest.

 

[brownmule]

i have different vet for different animals we have, dogs go 100 miles to a great vet, got a vet localy incase of something needs done right now, mules , we have an equine vet localy that does farm calls{thats rare here} now since i got the highlands looking for a cow doc. i have use this board to collect info, on what could go wrong and what to look for..how to take care of etc.. i feel the more you are informed the better off you are. my husband told me one time 'he hopes when he dies ,he comes back as one of my animals!"LOL i told him , let me know what he'll be , I'll watch for him! LOL thanks guys for getting togeather and putting this board here...
Rose

 

[randiliana]

Great posts. I totally agree. I wasnt trying to personally attack that person when i told them that they should have called the vet instead of standing there with their thing in their hands peein in the wind. They thought I was attacking them personally oh well.

No-one should be thinking you are attacking them when you advise them to call the vet!! After all that is just common sense ( :shock: yeah, i know)!!

 

[randiliana]

That is just it. I cannot stand to see an animal suffer. Now, I know we all make mistakes, and I have made them too, but there comes a point where something has to be done, and the sooner the better!! Mind you, we have 1 really good vet about 15 min from us and several more within and hour. I don't like spending money, but they have yet to charge me for advice over the phone either :lol:

 

[dun]

Read where the average American has an IQ of 90 and I don't imagine Canadian is much better.

The scary part is that means that half of the people are below 90. It may not be rocket science, but raising cattle does take an IQ higher then a carrot

dun

 

[lakading]

Read where the average American has an IQ of 90 and I don't imagine Canadian is much better.

The scary part is that means that half of the people are below 90.

Not necessarily. Could be more. Could be less.

It may not be rocket science, but raising cattle does take an IQ higher then a carrot

That however is absolutely true.

 

[Beef11]

It does not mean that you pull a humungous calf out of her (that you know should be a c-section).

You make it sound like a C-section is a great option. when in reality if you can get it out the back you will have a way better chance. Why would you need a vet to pull a calf anyway? Simple procedure? The problem with C sections is that your cow is going to die and probably your calf to. The difference is the vet bill. I'm not saying that they are 100% fatal but the ones i've seen done don't have a real high success rate. A bullet in my opinion is a better option than a cow that suffers for 5 days that you have a large vet bill and put $100 worth of drugs into.

 

[dun]

The problem with C sections is that your cow is going to die and probably your calf to. The difference is the vet bill. I'm not saying that they are 100% fatal but the ones i've seen done don't have a real high success rate.

Intersting, I've not witnessed more then a couple of dozen C-sections over the years. From one particular vet they all died, from another one none of them died.

dun

 

[Victoria]

The problem with C sections is that your cow is going to die and probably your calf to. The difference is the vet bill. I'm not saying that they are 100% fatal but the ones i've seen done don't have a real high success rate.

Intersting, I've not witnessed more then a couple of dozen C-sections over the years. From one particular vet they all died, from another one none of them died.

dun

That's the truth right there dun- it depends on the vet. Our vet has never had one die from a c-section that I know of. He's super clean. Another vet that I've heard about has a lot of cows die from c-sections. He's not as clean. Most deaths from c-section are from infection.

 

[dun]

The problem with C sections is that your cow is going to die and probably your calf to. The difference is the vet bill. I'm not saying that they are 100% fatal but the ones i've seen done don't have a real high success rate.

Intersting, I've not witnessed more then a couple of dozen C-sections over the years. From one particular vet they all died, from another one none of them died.

dun

That's the truth right there dun- it depends on the vet. Our vet has never had one die from a c-section that I know of. He's super clean. Another vet that I've heard about has a lot of cows die from c-sections. He's not as clean. Most deaths from c-section are from infection.

Not much different then fixing a DA

dun

 

[Victoria]

Randi,
I do agree with your post. We do have the responsibility to humanely care for our animals. Unfortunately the nature of the world will cause suffering for animals and people alike but I believe that when God puts us in charge of these animals we are to do our best for them.
We call our vet. Sometimes we even call when we do know what we should be doing but think they may have something better now. Times are changing and new research and drugs come out. It's their jobs to know what those new approaches are. Besides if something works well we tell our vet, so do others. He's got some great ideas that he's picked up from other ranchers. A good vet will always be worth the money you pay him/her.
For the people that don't have a good vet I really feel for them. When I see posts that say there's only one vet and he turned off his cell phone I feel bad for the people and the animals. I can see why they come on here to ask advice of course I think I would go to a vet site personally (no offense to any of us). Then I would come here.
I like the health board and have learned some tips that I may need in the future but to me that is what it is about learn it first then apply it. Don't try to be finding information once the problem has happened. If the problem has happened and you don't know what to do just get it fixed as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Cows are not people and I'm not a PETA member that thinks they should be treated as such but they do feel pain. When I am in pain I want a doctor that knows what they are doing or calls in someone else right away not someone who is still reading up material to try to figure out what is wrong. Cows want the same thing from their owners.
My other problem with people that let their animals suffer is that it does give PETA a chance to slam the industry.
I hope that made sense. If it didn't don't be too hard on me, I need more sleep - hopefully these calving cows will give me a break soon. Speaking of which back to work I go.

 

[Beef11]

I think timing and location have some impact on success rate. Most people won't call for a C section till the cow has been struggling for a considerable amount of time. Then if you are 2 hours from the nearest vet add that on to the equation. Cow could be in stage 3 for 8-12 hours pretty easy stress level is through the roof on her and she is exhausted. Cut her up and she won't likely make it. Ideally call for a C-section at first signs of Dystocia but who does that?

 

[randiliana]

You make it sound like a C-section is a great option. when in reality if you can get it out the back you will have a way better chance. Why would you need a vet to pull a calf anyway? Simple procedure? The problem with C sections is that your cow is going to die and probably your calf to. The difference is the vet bill. I'm not saying that they are 100% fatal but the ones i've seen done don't have a real high success rate. A bullet in my opinion is a better option than a cow that suffers for 5 days that you have a large vet bill and put $100 worth of drugs into.

Obviously a c-section is NOT a great option. However, when the alternative is a prolapsed, crippled(pinched nerve) and/or dead animal and calf, I am of the opinion that it is the BEST option.

Why would we need the vet to pull the calf? Well, if there is a malpresentation that we cannot fix ourselves. Our vet is really quite good, plus he's a really big guy and can reach a bit further than we can. It is a call we can make if we are in over our heads, and know that WE can't fix the problem after we have tried for a while!

C-section deaths, WOW, I have never seen a cow that died from a c-section, and I have to say I haven't heard of one locally either. We must have some pretty good vets around here. We have also had different vets do them for us (we have had 3 in the last 10 years) and never lost a cow or calf yet. The one cow we lost was OLD. OLD was the reason for the c-section, since she wouldn't dialate. We got a live calf out of her, and she died a couple weeks later, and it wasn't from an infection, she just was too old.

I suppose, if you have a dead calf, and you don't feel that the future value of the cow is enough, that a bullet is a fine decision. That is your decision to make, and I am thinking that it is better than yanking a huge dead calf out of her and killing her in the process.

 

[randiliana]

We call our vet. Sometimes we even call when we do know what we should be doing but think they may have something better now. Times are changing and new research and drugs come out. It's their jobs to know what those new approaches are. Besides if something works well we tell our vet, so do others. He's got some great ideas that he's picked up from other ranchers. A good vet will always be worth the money you pay him/her.
For the people that don't have a good vet I really feel for them. When I see posts that say there's only one vet and he turned off his cell phone I feel bad for the people and the animals. I can see why they come on here to ask advice of course I think I would go to a vet site personally (no offense to any of us). Then I would come here.
I like the health board and have learned some tips that I may need in the future but to me that is what it is about learn it first then apply it. Don't try to be finding information once the problem has happened. If the problem has happened and you don't know what to do just get it fixed as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Cows are not people and I'm not a PETA member that thinks they should be treated as such but they do feel pain. When I am in pain I want a doctor that knows what they are doing or calls in someone else right away not someone who is still reading up material to try to figure out what is wrong. Cows want the same thing from their owners.
My other problem with people that let their animals suffer is that it does give PETA a chance to slam the industry.
I hope that made sense.

Yes, we call our vet, even if it is for a simple problem. Usually he will just give us advice over the phone and that is that. The thing about vets is that you CAN call them, so even if you have to make a long distance call to one a couple hours away, he will most likely give you advice and tell you if he thinks he (or some other vet) should see the animal. Talking to a vet in real time is probably your best option. Next, would be to go online and find one on there, and third would be to come on here. There is lots of great advice, and even if you have talked to the vet some of us may tell you something that the vet didn't consider (after all he IS human).

Your thinking on PETA is exactly the same as mine. I love my animals and do my best to care for them, if they need to see a vet they should. And as you say, every time an animal is made to suffer, it opens the door for animal rights to get in there and say SEE IT IS HAPPENING, THEY DON'T CARE FOR THEM ENOUGH, and then some city guy sees this, and since there is enough truth in it he BELIEVES it is the NORM!

 

[randiliana]

I think timing and location have some impact on success rate. Most people won't call for a C section till the cow has been struggling for a considerable amount of time. Then if you are 2 hours from the nearest vet add that on to the equation. Cow could be in stage 3 for 8-12 hours pretty easy stress level is through the roof on her and she is exhausted. Cut her up and she won't likely make it. Ideally call for a C-section at first signs of Dystocia but who does that?

One rule of thumb (that I have heard) for whether or not to pull the calf is that once the calf's head is in the pelvic opening, you should be able to put your hand between the calf's head and the top of the cow's pelvis. If you can't then head to the vet, if you can go ahead and pull.

Of course, this would likely depend a LOT on the size of your hands. If you have small dainty hands (kinda like me) then you should probably have a bit more room in there than just the size of your hand, and if you have big huge hands (like a lot of large men) then maybe a really tight fit is all you need. But anyways, it is something to consider.

 

[CattleAnnie]

Beef11,

"Ideally call for a C-section at first signs of Dystocia?"

Bingo. You've hit the nail right on the head. Basically, the longer the delivery, the more stress to both cow and calf, thus the importance of keeping a vigilant eye on expectant cows.

"but who does that?"
As far as C-sections go, well, guilty as charged. As a matter of fact, up here, it would be pretty hard to find someone with stock who didn't do that. (Maybe that's why we're lucky enough to have 3 Large Animal vets practicing in an area who's closest town has a population of 12,000).

If I've got a cow that's starting to calve, I usually figure on giving her an hour from waterbag to delivery.

If she doesn't have it by then, it's time to do some sleuthing (or you've only seen one foot, a lot of straining and no progress you'd have known that something was amiss earlier and taken appropriate action; etc).

It really doesn't take that long to run her into the maternity pen, glove up and make a quick exam. Maybe twenty minutes tops if she's being a hag about it.

So now within an hour and a half you know what you're up against. Maybe it's something as easy to correct as a nose tipped between the forelegs - maybe it's a coarse boned calf that's just not going to fit.

So in our case, it's just over an hour to get to the vet's when you're hauling the stocktrailer. Add another twenty minutes to hook up, back in and load.

This now makes it almost three hours (best case if you've seen her with the water bag) from 'active labour' to veterinary intervention. Not too bad for the cow, but even so I've lost a calf that just stressed too much.

Now we've been fortunate and had the vet who lives closest to us perform a C-section within thirty five minutes of being called, but really can't count on it.

I guess it just boils down to how frequently you check your stock, the unfortunate thing is that so many people have to work off farm/ranch - and by the time they come home after work they may have an animal that's been in trouble for seven hours.

Not good, but there you have it - which is why I gave up my driving job for calving season. Can't afford to lose any, and just can't let them "do it on their own" with no one around for half the day - with my luck they'd all be tits up by suppertime. ;-)

Basically, vigilance and good facilities (they don't have to be fancy - just strong and installed with a bit of forethought) can go a long way.


Take care. Time to go check again.

 

[Vicky the vet]

It does not mean that you pull a humungous calf out of her (that you know should be a c-section).

The problem with C sections is that your cow is going to die and probably your calf to. The difference is the vet bill. I'm not saying that they are 100% fatal but the ones i've seen done don't have a real high success rate. .

Wow, do you ever hold us in high regard! I've done well over 1000 c-sections in all species except horses, and I've lost 2. One fell over and flipped her open incision down in a fresh pile of manure....guess that trying to pull the calf for 12 hours before calling me tired her out...she died of infection. The other one was so tired I did her down and did a ventral abdominal incision, and she herniated a week later and died. I learned from both and haven't lost any since. I've heard of vets with poor track records and in my opinion they are either using poor technique, unsterile equiptment or incredibly poor judgement. But to be honest, having a clean area for the surgery to be done, assistance and restraint for the cow help a LOT too. I also use drugs judiciously. An animal that's in pain doesn't do as well as one that's comfortable. So...

 

[rkm]

Vicky

Glad to see you say something. There has been a lot of vet bashing here. I done my share. I guess I remember bad situations more than good ones. In 45 years of milking cows and the last couple with beef we have spent a lot time working with a vet trying helping cows calve. Most times with sucess some time we failed, lost both cow and calf. But I never had a vet recommend a C-section.

 

[Beef11]

I'm not really impressed with the C-section work that i've seen around here... .. Now that yall have had such great success. I hear that if you do a C section on a horse its going to die. Something about the don't handle peritonitis (spelling). I did see a C section on hog about a month ago. Really neat. Anyway i should find a vet that can do a C section. Then i would save money on bullets. (I haven't ever shot one)