Aus - Allflex or Leader tags and animal welfare

[greggy]

Hi All,

This is a bit country specific I think.

For those who know these brands and tags, do you feel one is better than the other in regard to animal welfare and a tendency for the tag to let go before tearing ears ?

I have a number of torn ears, I think the tag should let go first, I had one where ear intact and tag post broke, but before getting more tags, just thought I would ask what your experience has been.

I think the rear button idea is flawed unless very soft, all animals like to scratch, and they seem to catch easy on many things...

 

[Redgully]

Personally I'd rather it need to tear the ear before coming out. I know a number of breeders who tried the leader tags and had tags missing everywhere. I have seen cattle tear a tag out and honestly i don't think it even knew or felt it.

 

[wbvs58]

I just go for the cheapest. I get them on line for about half the price from a retailer.

Ken

 

[gbfarm]

I used to have a lot of split ears and lost tags. Started using Perma-flex Daisy studs. Pretty much eliminated lost tags

 

[greggy]

I used to have a lot of split ears and lost tags. Started using Perma-flex Daisy studs. Pretty much eliminated lost tags

Unlike the US, we do not have your complete freedoms....

Our govts dictate many things, cattle must have govt approved RFID ear tags in many circumstances, or most circumstances rather, an owners ID or markings by tags is a separate thing.

so anyone who buys any cattle, they come with govt approved ear tags, any company wishing to sell tags must meet certain requirements, so the main ones are between 2 companies, there may be some others, I am happy to learn about them, also good to know of non approved ones cause you can use them for your own ID visual tags

I am mainly concerned with the govt reqd ones, I have 3 off since dec last year, 2 ripped ears, 1 the tag let go.

The other issue is, you must order new tags, they are then bright orange, what the heck for, I do not know, if one bull calf I has tears his other ear, there will literally be nowhere to put a tag,,,,someone did first ear very close to head and now he has 2 thin slivers as an ear It is really bad, he do not care, but is a pain for me ....

It is mainly calves who lose them, because they are playful, even some have caught on my clothing as they rush for a feed, and they rub, and in small areas, plenty to rub on

No one has swallowed one as yet...that would be fun if they came up with 2 IDs when scanned at a yard...lol

 

[greggy]

Personally I'd rather it need to tear the ear before coming out. I know a number of breeders who tried the leader tags and had tags missing everywhere. I have seen cattle tear a tag out and honestly i don't think it even knew or felt it.

Yeah, when I say animal welfare, I prob mean handlers sanity I do not think it bothers them at all, no more than a hypodermic needle in the rear.

So you reckon the leaders came out ? did they break the pin, or do you mean just poor quality and pin fell or came out ?

I think the rear that has the pin should be flexible on the edges, if they are hard, when they catch it will tear if the pin does not break.

I have one allflex and the pin snapped and left ear intact, but other allflex have ripped right through ear, I am talking about the round allflex, the triangle style I have not seen any come out, but they are far fewer than the round....and the rear button is prob the important part and part that catches.

 

[greggy]

I just go for the cheapest. I get them on line for about half the price from a retailer.

Ken

Leaders or Allflex, or some other brand Ken ?

How hard or flexible is the circular area of the pin ?

 

[Redgully]

I use the round type allflex ones. I'm small so it doesn't matter. The few big breeders i spoke to just told me to stick the these as they tried other types and they kept losing them. I believe there is also a double pin type but I've never seen it. I tattoo so i only need to nlis them but for visual i.d. i put in a jumbo allflex.

 

[wbvs58]

I just go for the cheapest. I get them on line for about half the price from a retailer.

Ken

Leaders or Allflex, or some other brand Ken ?

How hard or flexible is the circular area of the pin ?

They are round like Allflex but I think a different brand but don't know what brand. Not perfect but seem to stay in OK.

Ken

 

[greggy]

I use the round type allflex ones. I'm small so it doesn't matter. The few big breeders i spoke to just told me to stick the these as they tried other types and they kept losing them. I believe there is also a double pin type but I've never seen it. I tattoo so i only need to nlis them but for visual i.d. i put in a jumbo allflex.

So they say allflex for NLIS

And have you had any trouble with the jumbo allflex, and what age do you put them in.....I was looking at these tags and wondering what size to use....I was thinking the jumbo may be too big to put on young calves that are 100kg or so, but sure would make it easier from a visual standpoint.

For what it is worth, the tag that broke and did not rip the ear was an allflex, and if a tag is gonna get snagged, I prefer it to give before the ear !

 

[Redgully]

I like the jumbo allflex and it doesn't take them long to get used to them. I put them in at two days old. Had a nine year old lose hers but not ripped out, just disappeared. But other than that no problems at all. I only use those for visual id. I know all my cows by site even though all red polls, but no one else knows whos who! I am thinking of trying the tag that is long and skinny and hangs down to a large tag. Not sure of the name.

 

[regolith]

I'm using allflex NAIT tags... can lose up to 10% annually several with ears ripped. NZ government claims they don't come out and aren't interested in animal welfare. At least, I conclude that they aren't interested in animal welfare on the evidence that they insist on every calf being tagged full-time with these things even though farmers keep telling them they're shredding ears.
Two calves out of thirty born this spring have ripped ears, I know for a fact one did it on a bit of string hanging on a gate, because that's where I found the tag.

edit to add: my whole herd had tags scanned at TB testing nearly a year ago... that's a thing now. Just 5 tags found missing, ears not ripped but I think four of those cows would have been born 2009 - 2011. Which strongly suggests to me that those things have a half-life of not more than nine years. Previous time the herd was scanned was just two years after they were all first tagged, and we put in 10% new RFID tags as the originals had been lost.

 

[greggy]

Here they really only need to be tagged if leaving property, same as sheep IFAIK, could be wrong, but...

The whole tagging thing is a bit of a legislated mess IMO, good idea, but.....

I think you are prob right, if it is recent laws, how can anyone claim a tag is good for life ?

I really do not care if I have to re tag, what I care about is having an ear to tag too when selling, so if you buy real young calves, and some ripped already, and if you need to move or agist, then, they better bloodywell break the tag before the ear IMO

The ones with torn ears, well, I reckon if I tried to use some of the leftover flesh, it is going to drag that flesh down and be even more snag prone.....some of this stuff thought up by people in an office, is, well, not so helpful to be nice....

This was why I thought I would ask, I am a small time nobody who is not commercial, this sort of thing would irk me if I managed commercial stock that rotated property.....

 

[sim.-ang.king]

So do they not allow the round button tags?

 

[greggy]

Yes, the ones you must use are round button type tags with RFID chips in them on the inside.

Outside of ear is just the round button/disc, if that button was very flexible on edges, it prob would not be so easy to snag, some are hard, some are softer, probably not just by brand but maybe by manufacture date.

I think the pin section should have built in weakness that is less than the average force to tear an ear....no good to lose tags and have torn ears....must be a nightmare for some people, and prob why I have seen people just do whatever....

 

[Redgully]

Wouldn't work because what ear do you make it tear to, a young animals ear will tear easy and an old cow will not. Don't want a flick of a tail to be ripping them out. I would leave it as is, seems to be working ok and nothing is going to be perfect. I reckon they have a good balance between being user friendly and reliability. I have heard microchips mentioned, not sure where you'd put on a meat animal! But that would be a nightmare to apply even though it would 99.9% reliable, you lose that balance.

 

[alisonb]

Read this the other day...something else to watch out for :roll:

Bleeding Emergencies in Cattle
Dr. Colleen Lewis / January 5, 2017

Many years ago, I received a phone call to examine a Holstein steer as he lay with his head curled back in a sleeping position, unfortunately, dead. As I began my case investigation, I gathered a history and started through the hide to expose the underlying tissues and the muscles beneath. The tissues were extremely pale; the steer had bled out. But what he didn't have, was evidence of a major, life threatening bleed. Where had all of his blood gone? The only external wound the steer had was on his ear. Evidently, he had caught his ear tag on something and it had accidently tore out, creating a swallow fork. The injury at first glance was minor as the raw edges had produced a little puddle of blood beneath his head before he passed. Gathering more information, the owner proceeded to tell me that the tag was purported missing about four days ago. The bleeding was small but steady, at a rate of roughly one to two drops per second. On further examination, we were finding similar puddles of blood around his loafing area. Over the course of four days, the blood loss was enough to prove fatal. Be aware that even a slow blood loss over a series of days can add up to be very serious. At least it was for one fat steer. Most bleeding injuries are a lot more noticeable.

 

[Redgully]

Very odd, there must have been some condition causing it not to clot, even if the others were licking it there still would have been clotting. Could have a snake bitten it?

 

[greggy]

All the torn ears I have are well and truly healed.....and I am very close to them each day.....

I doubt it would be an issue if buying untagged...or born on farm....it is the very young calves who have the issue......

 

[greggy]

Wouldn't work because what ear do you make it tear to, a young animals ear will tear easy and an old cow will not. Don't want a flick of a tail to be ripping them out. I would leave it as is, seems to be working ok and nothing is going to be perfect. I reckon they have a good balance between being user friendly and reliability. I have heard microchips mentioned, not sure where you'd put on a meat animal! But that would be a nightmare to apply even though it would 99.9% reliable, you lose that balance.

Prob is, legislation requires few day olds to have a tag if moved or sold....if it was only yearlings or left to discretion
......not an issue