angus/hereford

[brierpatch1974]

I was just wondering why most people use angus cows and use a hereford bull ? Why not the other way around? Hereford cows and an Angus bull ? I am sure either way is a good cross but why does it seem most people use the angus cows?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

'Cause Angus mommas are better?

I'm new to this so I'm just guessing.

 

[3legdonkey]

I have a Beefmaster bull and mostly Angus and Hereford cows. But then again I just got into this myself so I am probably not much help... grin.

 

[turklilley]

I have had the Angus cows for years, it was cheaper to buy the Herford bull. But he is not so big and aggressive as my Angus bull, so he don't breed much until I remove the Angus bull.

 

[dun]

Because there are a lot more angus (i.e. black) cows then Hereford cows. So many people jumped on the angus bandwagon that to do any crossing they almost have to go with a Hereford bull.

 

[circlebllc]

Many reasons really. Pinkeye is more prevalent in lighter pigmented eyes, good Hereford cows are harder to find, OR they have black because everybody else does, black is in.

Not many people will argue that black is overated, except the the ones whom bleed black. It seems the buyers have the final say.

 

[shaz]

Because there are a lot more angus (i.e. black) cows then Hereford cows. So many people jumped on the angus bandwagon that to do any crossing they almost have to go with a Hereford bull.

:nod:

 

[KNERSIE]

Angus typically are better milkers, but also tend to be harder keeping and not quite as fertile because of that. If your conditions are good I'd go with angus cows and a hereford bull, otherwise you might leave lbs on the table at weaning time.

Nothing beats the fertility of hereford cows so if your conditions are tougher and the environment can't support the extra milk from the angus rather use hereford cows and an angus bull, otherwise you might not have as many calves to wean next year.

The crux of it is to use cows that are adapted to your conditions and use the bull to please the market and not the other way around.

 

[Rhune]

Wouldn't an F1 angus/hereford X in theory be the best choice due to hybrid vigor??

 

[dun]

Wouldn't an F1 angus/hereford X in theory be the best choice due to hybrid vigor??

The problem with that is when you breed them back to one of the parent breeds you have breed regression and don;t perform as well as a third breed in the cross would and probably not as good as the first cross

 

[Rhune]

Dun, I'm a total noob here, but isn't that what a rotational cross is? Breeding them back to an Angus then a Hereford then back to Angus? I'm very interested in this because I am about to buy my first cows and I am relying heavily on the advice of local rancher. He is telling me to buy black baldies and use a terminal cross.

 

[KNERSIE]

Dun, I'm a total noob here, but isn't that what a rotational cross is? Breeding them back to an Angus then a Hereford then back to Angus? I'm very interested in this because I am about to buy my first cows and I am relying heavily on the advice of local rancher. He is telling me to buy black baldies and use a terminal cross.

Follow his advice!

The problem with the 3waycross is it is designed to be done terminally as your friend suggested, to try and make a totational 3 way system work takes a lot of different breeding pastures lots of different bulls and you'll still end up with very diverse looking calves.

 

[dun]

Dun, I'm a total noob here, but isn't that what a rotational cross is? Breeding them back to an Angus then a Hereford then back to Angus? I'm very interested in this because I am about to buy my first cows and I am relying heavily on the advice of local rancher. He is telling me to buy black baldies and use a terminal cross.

Our cows are Red Angus and Red Angus crosses. We AI our F1s to a third breed then use a Red Angus for cleanup

 

[brierpatch1974]

If F1s are not good for breeding back to angus What was the point of creating bradfords or brangus? Still two breeds just bred to a 5/8 3/8. Seems that theory could be applied to any two breeds to get the same 5/8 3/8 cross. Maybe not with no English breeds but any english breed and continental breed cross. What am I missing? I knowI am missing something because it cant be that simple lol.

 

[dun]

If F1s are not good for breeding back to angus What was the point of creating bradfords or brangus? Still two breeds just bred to a 5/8 3/8. Seems that theory could be applied to any two breeds to get the same 5/8 3/8 cross. Maybe not with no English breeds but any english breed and continental breed cross. What am I missing? I knowI am missing something because it cant be that simple lol.

Development of the American breeds (BrahmanXsomething) was done to get the heat tolerance into the breed. The American breeds have the same problem with breed reversion if you breed them back to one of the parent breeds. F1's (not American breeds but probably with them too) the real advantage is using them in a multiple breed cross. Maternal F1s bred to a terminal breed gives you almost as much bang for your buck as adding in other breeds.

 

[KNERSIE]

brafords and brangus are both indeed 5/8 herefords and angus respectively, but the idea behind creating them wasn't with crossbreeding in mind, but rather to breed a genetically stabile composite who still had the benefit from the complimentary breeding from the original breeds. The idea was to use either breed in a straight bred operation to simplify bull and pasture management because crossbreeding tended to complicate things in the 3rd generation onwards.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I have a Beefmaster bull and mostly Angus and Hereford cows. But then again I just got into this myself so I am probably not much help... grin.

F-1 baldies bring a premium here but most go into a terminal operation to get the 3 way cross hybred vigor .
This has been discussed in great length the crossbred calf will result in 10% higher weight gain at weaning over a straight breed and a 3way 20%. Most around here come back and put a Brangus on an F-1 or Char man that makes one fine calf. Now I am running an Angus bull over Herefords as I would rather deal with only one crazy. I am not fond of Angus in any shape form or fashion other than Brangus. Mainly I want a red cow base I can change the calf crop by changing the bull, with black your stuck on black. As hard as it is to believe the Angus train will jump the track if you stay in this long enough and pass in popularity as many before and those that will come after.

 

[3legdonkey]

As hard as it is to believe the Angus train will jump the track if you stay in this long enough and pass in popularity as many before and those that will come after.

There is no question that the marketing folks have driven the Angus name to new heights of public stupidity. Everywhere you go you see advertisements of black Angus this and black Angus that. Last time I checked no one was genetically testing their hamburger to see what it really was before they ate it... Grin.

I actually needed a number of different breeds because my target market is direct sale to the grass fed crew. I am expecting some percentage of my clients to want beef from a specific breed and so I have made sure to have a few different breeds while making sure that I keep the majority of my animals within the largest two groups used in my area. I just happened across the Beefmaster bull at a very good price and my partner in the activity started drooling over him. I am still calling him hamburger until I see him full grown and see how well he breeds.

 

[Caustic Burno]

As hard as it is to believe the Angus train will jump the track if you stay in this long enough and pass in popularity as many before and those that will come after.

There is no question that the marketing folks have driven the Angus name to new heights of public stupidity. Everywhere you go you see advertisements of black Angus this and black Angus that. Last time I checked no one was genetically testing their hamburger to see what it really was before they ate it... Grin.

I actually needed a number of different breeds because my target market is direct sale to the grass fed crew. I am expecting some percentage of my clients to want beef from a specific breed and so I have made sure to have a few different breeds while making sure that I keep the majority of my animals within the largest two groups used in my area. I just happened across the Beefmaster bull at a very good price and my partner in the activity started drooling over him. I am still calling him hamburger until I see him full grown and see how well he breeds.

The problem I have with the Beefmaster over your type of cows is you have pulled too many crayons out of the box to get a consistant heavy weaning calf. I am not picking on you this is just the opinon of an old fart.

Here are my issues you have a composite bull consisting of Brammer/Hereford/Shorthorn genetics over Angus/Hereford gentics. Now the worst cross for hybred vigor is Shorthorn over Hereford followed by Shorthorn over Angus.
Now if the Brimmer genetics show up on your calves your off to the races with pounds to run across the scales.
With your type of cattle I would have came back with a Black Gel, Simm, and Brangus being my first choice for pounds on calfs. You are dealing with DNA from the begining of time and you don't know which crayon is coming out in that cross. Drive by someones place and look at a herd of registered Brangus, pay close attention you can see Angus in one cow and brimmer in another and they are all 3/8 5/8.
That being said I am not marketing the best calf for weight at weaning with my cross of Angus over Hereford as I am losing 10% over the 3 way cross. I am marketing replacement heifers to go to terminal operations that bring a premium only under the Tiger. The only reason a Brammer bull isn't standing in my pasture is you get hammered on the steer calves. The heifers bring top dollar in my area but you can loose that premium with a bunch of steer calves in a season.

 

[3legdonkey]

The problem I have with the Beefmaster over your type of cows is you have pulled too many crayons out of the box to get a consistant heavy weaning calf. I am not picking on you this is just the opinon of an old fart.

Here are my issues you have a composite bull consisting of Brammer/Hereford/Shorthorn genetics over Angus/Hereford gentics. Now the worst cross for hybred vigor is Shorthorn over Hereford followed by Shorthorn over Angus.
Now if the Brimmer genetics show up on your calves your off to the races with pounds to run across the scales.
With your type of cattle I would have came back with a Black Gel, Simm, and Brangus being my first choice for pounds on calfs. You are dealing with DNA from the begining of time and you don't know which crayon is coming out in that cross. Drive by someones place and look at a herd of registered Brangus, pay close attention you can Angus in one cow and brimmer in another and they are all 3/8 5/8.
That being said I am not marketing the best calf for weight at weaning with my cross of Angus over Hereford as I am losing 10% over the 3 way cross. I am marketing replacement heifers to go to terminal operations that bring a premium only under the Tiger. The only reason a Brammer bull isn't standing in my pasture is you get hammered on the steer calves. The heifers bring top dollar in my area but you can loose that premium with a bunch of steer calves in a season.

I like your crayon analogy as it is quite apt. You and I are shooting for a different market. My animals will be entirely grass fed, not fattened up on grains, and chosen directly by the end consumer. As such I need a diverse box of crayons to allow each purchaser to get whatever it is they think they need from their special animal. I m not as interested in squeezing every last pound out of the animal as I am squeezing every last dollar out of the market. They are different means to the same goal and through technically they could be compatible I believe that symmetry across the herd would reduce my eventual profit. If on the other hand I was going for the auction barn or directly to a feed lot I would be doing exactly what you are talking about.

Now with all this said I will admit that I am taking a risk as I have spoken with no one else doing exactly what I am talking about doing. But my research into the grass fed market has shown me that in the worst case with grass fed I will end up around $2 per pound at hoof weight. The absolute worst case scenario is my having to sell at the sale barn and even there on the low end of the price point I will make a profit on land that I was making nothing on before. In other words if I am completely wrong and my thinking based on significant research is completely wrong I still make money. And if I am right I make an ass load of money.