angus/hereford

[Caustic Burno]

The problem I have with the Beefmaster over your type of cows is you have pulled too many crayons out of the box to get a consistant heavy weaning calf. I am not picking on you this is just the opinon of an old fart.

Here are my issues you have a composite bull consisting of Brammer/Hereford/Shorthorn genetics over Angus/Hereford gentics. Now the worst cross for hybred vigor is Shorthorn over Hereford followed by Shorthorn over Angus.
Now if the Brimmer genetics show up on your calves your off to the races with pounds to run across the scales.
With your type of cattle I would have came back with a Black Gel, Simm, and Brangus being my first choice for pounds on calfs. You are dealing with DNA from the begining of time and you don't know which crayon is coming out in that cross. Drive by someones place and look at a herd of registered Brangus, pay close attention you can Angus in one cow and brimmer in another and they are all 3/8 5/8.
That being said I am not marketing the best calf for weight at weaning with my cross of Angus over Hereford as I am losing 10% over the 3 way cross. I am marketing replacement heifers to go to terminal operations that bring a premium only under the Tiger. The only reason a Brammer bull isn't standing in my pasture is you get hammered on the steer calves. The heifers bring top dollar in my area but you can loose that premium with a bunch of steer calves in a season.

I like your crayon analogy as it is quite apt. You and I are shooting for a different market. My animals will be entirely grass fed, not fattened up on grains, and chosen directly by the end consumer. As such I need a diverse box of crayons to allow each purchaser to get whatever it is they think they need from their special animal. I m not as interested in squeezing every last pound out of the animal as I am squeezing every last dollar out of the market. They are different means to the same goal and through technically they could be compatible I believe that symmetry across the herd would reduce my eventual profit. If on the other hand I was going for the auction barn or directly to a feed lot I would be doing exactly what you are talking about.

Now with all this said I will admit that I am taking a risk as I have spoken with no one else doing exactly what I am talking about doing. But my research into the grass fed market has shown me that in the worst case with grass fed I will end up around $2 per pound at hoof weight. The absolute worst case scenario is my having to sell at the sale barn and even there on the low end of the price point I will make a profit on land that I was making nothing on before. In other words if I am completely wrong and my thinking based on significant research is completely wrong I still make money. And if I am right I make an ass load of money.

I hope you do. Don't become sale check blind as many do in this industry the national average profit per cow is 100 dollars. I made 22 dollars last year per head. You are not going to get a 100% calf crop figure on 90%.
Secondly that cow has a cost per day you need to know what that is, this year I need a 1.05 a pound on a 500 pound calf to break even. This number is going to go up before the end of the year due to drought. Right now it is costing me a 1.44 a day to keep a cow here.

 

[3legdonkey]

I hope you do. Don't become sale check blind as many do in this industry the national average profit per cow is 100 dollars. I made 22 dollars last year per head. You are not going to get a 100% calf crop figure on 90%.

I am glad to hear your figure of 90%. After a lot of reading and talking that is the exact number I came up with. I am actually only expecting 60% the first year as I have virgin heifers and bull. So unless I play them sweet music and set out candle and incense I do not think they will hit 90%... grin.

Secondly that cow has a cost per day you need to know what that is, this year I need a 1.05 a pound on a 500 pound calf to break even. This number is going to go up before the end of the year due to drought. Right now it is costing me a 1.44 a day to keep a cow here.

You and I may have a number of differences on our cost per cow.
1. I have 680 acres of lush grass (warm and cool season with large stands of red clover) that sits unused that I just mow every year. I do not believe that 17 cattle will make much of a dent in that so I do not intend to feed much supplemental feed.
2. My vet bills will be minimal as my partner does all of the vet work and I just buy the medicine at wholesale.
3. I do have both a sunk cost in the land, as it is paid for and an opportunity cost for not using it in a more profitable endeavor. But on the other hand I wish to use the land lightly and value my enjoyment of the property more than the total cash I could wring out of it. So I am not sure I should charge that cost to each cow as I was paying it before I got them.
4. The money I spent on the cows (opportunity cost) was just sitting in the bank getting negative interest after inflation. If I end up at the sale barn (absolute worst case) I will make approximately 16% on that money year over year after paying all costs I have so far figured I might incur.
5. I am suspicious the scale of our operations are significantly different. I barley qualify as a hobby farm whereas you are probably a very large operation being run as a business.

With all that said, I must admit, that I may be way off in my thinking. It is very likely there are costs I have not figured into the equation yet and after a few years I will have a better grasp of my real costs. I will also admit I do not include my or my partners time into the equation as both of us are approaching this as an enjoyable activity we will make money off of.

So in four years ask me how far off I was and I will give you what should be a very interesting answer... Big Grin.

 

[KNERSIE]

Just a comment out of the left field....

If you aim for the grassfed market, you actually want to leave some of that growth (that is usually associated with later maturing animals) on the table in order to make sure you can finish them in a timely manner. For your type of operation type is far more important than maximising heterosis or terminal growth. Breeds to avoid would be brahman and the bigger continentals.

 

[Caustic Burno]

The most I have ever run was 38, I have always maintained the philosphy a cow has to pay her way.
You are leaving a lot out of the equation taxes, mineral's, the neighbors dogs , calf losses to natural cause's.
An outbreak of neospora or trich and the abortion storm that follows, God forbid bangs as feral hogs have now been found in Texas to be carrying bovine bangs and a list of other diseases longer than your arm. Cost of infrastucture you need just as good of working facilaties for 10 as a 100, fence has to be just as good as well. That cow cost is something that has to be repaid and replacements are not free, the most costly is the one you retain.
You are just one bad drought away from what do I do. Neighbor is down to 50 on 400 acres which would normally have 350 on the same land. There is many a man was going to get rich in cattle, the old saying if you want to make a little money in cows start out with a lot. Don't think these high prices will last as this will pass as well, the cycle goes round and round. This uptick is going to last for a while until the market gets flooded with forriegn beef and it will.
Kernsie is right about growth for finishing grass fed beef.

Not being discourageing just how it is.
Enjoy your cows and good luck.

 

[3legdonkey]

Just a comment out of the left field....

If you aim for the grassfed market, you actually want to leave some of that growth (that is usually associated with later maturing animals) on the table in order to make sure you can finish them in a timely manner. For your type of operation type is far more important than maximising heterosis or terminal growth. Breeds to avoid would be brahman and the bigger continentals.

I do not consider your comment out of left field at all. My initial thoughts were to go with an animal like Scottish Highlands but their slow growth rate, smaller size and the hit I would take at the sale barn (worst case scenario) sent me running back to the breeds that are considered tried and true for my area.

 

[3legdonkey]

Not being discourageing just how it is.

I believe what you are doing is applying reality to my theory... Grin.

Enjoy your cows and good luck.

Thank you! I believe I will need it.

 

[KNERSIE]

No need to go to that extreme either, do a search on the breeds board for JHambley 's posts, he has the right type of herefords for you goal, OK Jeanne's Murray Greys would work equally well.

 

[3legdonkey]

I forgot to comment on these items as you are giving me the best infomration of anyone so far and I do not want you to think I have discounted anything you have said.

You are leaving a lot out of the equation taxes, mineral's, the neighbors dogs ,

I have very few neighbors as I am in the middle of the Mark Twain National forest, but you are right anyway as we do get a number of stray dogs people have abandoned each year. I believe I have the mineral and yearly personal property taxes covered.

calf losses to natural cause's.

I was assuming this is covered by the 90% figure. Do I need to lower that figure?

An outbreak of neospora or trich and the abortion storm that follows, God forbid bangs as feral hogs have now been found in Texas to be carrying bovine bangs and a list of other diseases longer than your arm.

Missouri is a bangs free state but I am getting them vaccinated anyway. The trich issue has me spooked and I have decided to only bring heifers or young bulls into my herd that have been tested. Looks like there is not a thing I can do about neospora until they come out with a vaccine?

Cost of infrastucture you need just as good of working facilaties for 10 as a 100, fence has to be just as good as well.

I have the facilities already though my head chute is old and I may replace it. I have minimal fence needs as I just let then free roam. The few fence needs I have my cost is materials as fixing fence is part of my tenants rent.

That cow cost is something that has to be repaid and replacements are not free,

So that one is an interesting subject. I bought all of may cattle as young heifers and so paid very little for them. When one needs to be replaced I plan to do the same. In fact, after thinking about your statement for a bit I think I need to buy a few young heifers every few years so I always have one or two ready to replace my base herd. The cost of each animal is not lost unless it dies. After it has served most of its useful life I will then sell it and replace it with the proceeds for the sale. So there is certainly an opportunity cost for the money but my risk of losing the money is pretty small. And if you compare it to the stock market I would say it is insignificant.

the most costly is the one you retain.

Is same advice my partner gave me (he was a dairyman for 30 years). Is his job to figure out who is a producer and who is not so we can cull out the slackers.

You are just one bad drought away from what do I do. Neighbor is down to 50 on 400 acres which would normally have 350 on the same land.

In 40 years I only remember one drought where we had an issue. My grandfather stuck a pump in the river and irrigated two fields once every week for a month. It pulled him through until it rained. The river did not run dry, all the springs kept running, so I am not sure it is as big of a concern in my location as it is in yours (TX?).

There is many a man was going to get rich in cattle, the old saying if you want to make a little money in cows start out with a lot. Don't think these high prices will last as this will pass as well, the cycle goes round and round. This uptick is going to last for a while until the market gets flooded with forriegn beef and it will.

I believe that on this point you and I disagree. As the world population increases and as the cost of fuel rises the cost of all food has no choice to increase. More importantly the cost of meat as it sits at the top of the food chain and thus costs the most to produce. Our current prices in the US are actually considerably under what food costs in most other countries due to the abundance that we have. There are a few other countries in our same position like Canada, Australia and a few of our South American neighbors. But in general, the rest of the world is very hungry, and quite envious of our quantity of food a such low prices. I will entirely skip an number of other factors that will also drive the cost of food up over time as many might not believe in them. In short the price will gradually rise over time through we will certainly see ups and downs along that rise.

Thank you for your comments and please keep them coming as learning from others is the best way to reduce the number of mistakes one needs to make on their own... Big grin.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I am so stupid I just never learn :bang: :bang: :bang:
Failed the IQ test again :help:

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

"Don't become sale check blind as many do in this industry the national average profit per cow is 100 dollars."By Caustic Burno

Seriously CB, that's it? Why bother then? I'm being serious, that's not very much money considering the blood, sweat, and well...you know the rest.

Not being smart, just askin'....
TT

 

[Caustic Burno]

"Don't become sale check blind as many do in this industry the national average profit per cow is 100 dollars."By Caustic Burno

Seriously CB, that's it? Why bother then? I'm being serious, that's not very much money considering the blood, sweat, and well...you know the rest.

Not being smart, just askin'....
TT

Most people in the industry are not making that. Most don't add all the cost of the cow. It is like people think retained heifers are free and they are the most costly on the place.

 

[OLD DUSTY]

$100 Profit per head for a $1000 cow is 10%. As far as all of the work and trouble of fooling with cattle, some of us are just gluttons for punishment, or a bit dim witted :cboy:
3leggeddonkey, if you want to sell beef to customers you would be wise to follow KNERSIE's advise. Tender tasty beef will make happy customers.

 

[MF135]

"Don't become sale check blind as many do in this industry the national average profit per cow is 100 dollars."By Caustic Burno

Seriously CB, that's it? Why bother then? I'm being serious, that's not very much money considering the blood, sweat, and well...you know the rest.

Not being smart, just askin'....
TT

Most people in the industry are not making that. Most don't add all the cost of the cow. It is like people think retained heifers are free and they are the most costly on the place.

Most are making considerably more than that. Too many people try to expense property taxes, way too much fuel, barns, and fences from the calves revenue, not to mention all kinds of capital improvements that just aren't necessary for the cattle operation. If you would incur the expense whether you had cattle or not, there's no way you can expense that cost against the cow. If anything, you should be crediting your revenue for the savings the ag exemptions provided you on property taxes.

I'd keep the beefmaster on Angus cows. The f1 replacements will make excellent mothers and the bull calves will grow as good as any. Despite what some have said on here, you will get an extremely uniform calf crop with the beefmaster over straightbred cows. Beefmasters genetics are highly stabalized. Id go as far as to say there is less genetic diversity in the beefmasters than in the Angus or hereford breeds. Angus and hereford vary greatly from one ranch to the next. Most of the beefmasters I've seen are fairly similar with regard to phenotype. This cannot be said of Angus or hereford. There are very few maternal crosses that can compete as cows with an f1 super baldie( brangus x hereford) or the f1 beefmaster x Angus. Go back with a charolais or limi as the terminal cross. Big $.

 

[3legdonkey]

I'd keep the beefmaster on Angus cows. The f1 replacements will make excellent mothers and the bull calves will grow as good as any. Despite what some have said on here, you will get an extremely uniform calf crop with the beefmaster over straightbred cows. Beefmasters genetics are highly stabalized. Id go as far as to say there is less genetic diversity in the beefmasters than in the Angus or hereford breeds. Angus and hereford vary greatly from one ranch to the next. Most of the beefmasters I've seen are fairly similar with regard to phenotype. This cannot be said of Angus or hereford. There are very few maternal crosses that can compete as cows with an f1 super baldie( brangus x hereford) or the f1 beefmaster x Angus. Go back with a charolais or limi as the terminal cross. Big $.

Glad to hear your opinion as it matches well with most of the advice I am getting from people who I know and trust (multi generational cattle ranchers in my local area). Almost any modern cow will produce well compared to even 50 years ago and will produce an excellent piece of beef. Obviously some crosses will do slightly better but the slight differences are not worth the effort and money required to swap out my current bull and heifers. Over time, depending on how each animal does, I may swap out a few of the heifers for ones that I think will produce better but that is two to three years in the future.

 

[midtncattle]

I have a Beefmaster bull and mostly Angus and Hereford cows. But then again I just got into this myself so I am probably not much help... grin.

F-1 baldies bring a premium here but most go into a terminal operation to get the 3 way cross hybred vigor .
This has been discussed in great length the crossbred calf will result in 10% higher weight gain at weaning over a straight breed and a 3way 20%. Most around here come back and put a Brangus on an F-1 or Char man that makes one fine calf. Now I am running an Angus bull over Herefords as I would rather deal with only one crazy. I am not fond of Angus in any shape form or fashion other than Brangus. Mainly I want a red cow base I can change the calf crop by changing the bull, with black your stuck on black. As hard as it is to believe the Angus train will jump the track if you stay in this long enough and pass in popularity as many before and those that will come after.

What about a Char on red brangus momma? Does that make any sense?

 

[MF135]

I have a Beefmaster bull and mostly Angus and Hereford cows. But then again I just got into this myself so I am probably not much help... grin.

F-1 baldies bring a premium here but most go into a terminal operation to get the 3 way cross hybred vigor .
This has been discussed in great length the crossbred calf will result in 10% higher weight gain at weaning over a straight breed and a 3way 20%. Most around here come back and put a Brangus on an F-1 or Char man that makes one fine calf. Now I am running an Angus bull over Herefords as I would rather deal with only one crazy. I am not fond of Angus in any shape form or fashion other than Brangus. Mainly I want a red cow base I can change the calf crop by changing the bull, with black your stuck on black. As hard as it is to believe the Angus train will jump the track if you stay in this long enough and pass in popularity as many before and those that will come after.

What about a Char on red brangus momma? Does that make any sense?

Makes a lot of sense. For a terminal cross, char x brangus is tough to beat.

 

[janeholder]

An angus bull with hereford cow will typically throw a mottled white face. Whereas a hereford bull on angus cow will throw a pure white face commonly called a black baldie

 

[Rhune]

Woohoo this thread has risen from the dead. If I could talk to Rhune 2011 I would have a lot to say.

 

[3legdonkey]

At times the dead risen can have knowledge we need to know... Big grin.

So time for an update. My grand plan of doing grass fed turned into way to much of a pain so I have gone back to the sale barn. I increased the herd to 39 breeding cows and 2 bulls. My Beefmaster bull was throwing big headed calves and started to get aggressive so his nickname of hamburger was quite apt. He was sold last year and replaced with 2 Black Charolais bulls. I have lost three cows and 4 calves due to disease, birth, and one calf getting stepped on by its mother. On the plus side a few of my cows have huge bags and thus have had no issues taking another calf each and so I have been able to buy a few extra calves on the cheap.

Lessons learned:
1. Don't buy cows off of Craigslist site unseen. I made money after I held them for a bit but I got one very sick animal (one of my losses) and 4 that would never make good mothers.
2. DV Auction rocks. View the auction live, buy online, drink beer during the auction, and have them delivered that day.
3. Assume you have scours and watch carefully for the signs. And vaccinate ahead of time if possible. (I lost 2 calves to scours or my stupidity depending on your point of view)
4. Based on my current run rate and an auction price of $1.25/100wt it takes three years to start making income and 6 years to get all of your money back out of the operation (I know prices have gone up but I am not counting on it for projections).
5. If you are looking for a way to protect your savings (forget making money for the moment) cattle rock. If I sold all my cattle right now they would be worth slightly more than what I have in them including all of the extraneous expenses. VS leaving the money in the bank and earning negative interest. I have come out ahead. Then when I account for getting to write off all of the expenses on my taxes I am way ahead.

Some results:
This year (the first year I have made money) I will end up making $57 per head after all expenses. Next year I will make $282 per head if my expenses and production percentages remain the same as this year. And the next year when I am up to full production I will make $384 per head. This appears to be well above the average of $200 per head for a standard cow calf operation. But I have no land or people costs since my partner and I are doing this as a hobby and the land is long paid for.

I would love to hear other peoples lessons learned and results.

 

[highgrit]

Black Charolais, hum another crossbreed.