In a recent post I read about how Shaffs Angus Valley produced very large bulls to sell. In alot of peoples opinion too big. My question is; besides SAV what other Angus breeders are known for raising big, almost too big of bulls? Ive heard that Stevenson Basin produces some big cattle. Feltons maybe? Vermilion Ranch? Sitz Angus? Who is raising the monsters? Which breeders have a reputation of producing large, heavy bulls for sell?
Angus Bull Question
- Thread starter CopeMan
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Brightview
Active member
Copeman,
What is the point of the query? Do you want to give your opinion of size vs efficiency in any particular region of US or anywhere else for that matter?
Personally, I have my personal breeding program aimed at halting the reduction in size of the Angus breed. Even though I use the Midlands and Future Directions, my stud cows are now a group of larger framed, muscled and constitutioned animals, so using the "smaller" bulls I can still chieve a 6.5 to 7 frame product to sell. My clients want animals that a butcher can get the most meat off, without sacrificing the major benefits of Angus, i.e., calving sease and fertility.
FWIW
Lee
What is the point of the query? Do you want to give your opinion of size vs efficiency in any particular region of US or anywhere else for that matter?
Personally, I have my personal breeding program aimed at halting the reduction in size of the Angus breed. Even though I use the Midlands and Future Directions, my stud cows are now a group of larger framed, muscled and constitutioned animals, so using the "smaller" bulls I can still chieve a 6.5 to 7 frame product to sell. My clients want animals that a butcher can get the most meat off, without sacrificing the major benefits of Angus, i.e., calving sease and fertility.
FWIW
Lee
simangus23
Well-known member
But why would you want a frame score of 6.5 to 7 in your bull/steer calves? you know they take longer to finish?
Going in reverse on Frame Score is the wrong thing to do in my opinion, and as a feedlot owner we stay away from those calves period.
Also many people do not consider the "type" of cattle they are putting on their particular location as it pertains to forage availability. For Instance raising large framed Angus cows in west Texas on limited forage availability would not be advantageous to your business.
Then they take a cut at sale time because the stockers dont want them either, because it takes more forage per head per day to put the weight on the larger framed calves knowing that we could be using less forage and getting more gain on smaller framed calves, thus increasing our net worth.
Moderation here is the key-- Moderate frame should, in my opinion, be what we are striving for and there is nothing Moderate about a Frame Score of 6.5 to 7.
Sim
Bigger aint always better
Going in reverse on Frame Score is the wrong thing to do in my opinion, and as a feedlot owner we stay away from those calves period.
Also many people do not consider the "type" of cattle they are putting on their particular location as it pertains to forage availability. For Instance raising large framed Angus cows in west Texas on limited forage availability would not be advantageous to your business.
Then they take a cut at sale time because the stockers dont want them either, because it takes more forage per head per day to put the weight on the larger framed calves knowing that we could be using less forage and getting more gain on smaller framed calves, thus increasing our net worth.
Moderation here is the key-- Moderate frame should, in my opinion, be what we are striving for and there is nothing Moderate about a Frame Score of 6.5 to 7.
Sim
Bigger aint always better
novatech
Well-known member
Could it be he wants to know what breeders to stay away from?Brightview":2yaamv3a said:
If a breeder raises cattle that are to large, and is still in business, he has a market for them?
jscunn
Well-known member
Cope,
It would probably help everyone answer your question, if you told us how big is too big (or big enough) for you. Because too big for me maybe just right for you, or vice versa.
BTW SimAngus I will call you the next time a customer of mine picks the smallest bull or heifer in the pen and says the others are too big.. Most cattleman still get paid by the POUND at weaning, the reason Cope may want a big bull to sell some heavy weight steers and get paid.
It would probably help everyone answer your question, if you told us how big is too big (or big enough) for you. Because too big for me maybe just right for you, or vice versa.
BTW SimAngus I will call you the next time a customer of mine picks the smallest bull or heifer in the pen and says the others are too big.. Most cattleman still get paid by the POUND at weaning, the reason Cope may want a big bull to sell some heavy weight steers and get paid.
OP
OP
CopeMan
Well-known member
First off Behemouth bulls is not what I like. Its just a hypothetical question, I knew everyone would have to start telling what they lkke and use in there herd. Its simple, what breeders have a reputation of breeding monsters. Not just a few. Ex. maybe one giant bull used for AI, Im talking a consistant crop of large framed bulls marketed every year??????? Its just a question, Im talking frame scores of 6.5 and up to the 7's or maybe even an 8?
Avalon
Well-known member
I don't know of anyone out there activley trying to raise anything even as big as a 7.
I will not mention names but it seems that most all of the breeders that have been succesful at putting bulls into stud have had small ones and big ones. If you check the frame scores on Schaff bulls, youll see that neither 004 or Net Worth are over 6.8. I can not remember the size but I did notice that they were not as big as thought. Ok just figured I can mention Gardners. Note that they have some really big ones and really small ones. Bulls and breeders should be looked at on a one by one basis.
I will not mention names but it seems that most all of the breeders that have been succesful at putting bulls into stud have had small ones and big ones. If you check the frame scores on Schaff bulls, youll see that neither 004 or Net Worth are over 6.8. I can not remember the size but I did notice that they were not as big as thought. Ok just figured I can mention Gardners. Note that they have some really big ones and really small ones. Bulls and breeders should be looked at on a one by one basis.
highvoltagecattleco
Well-known member
CopeMan":2zpb1fqt said:
SAV doesn't produce huge frame bulls like the Frey's. The complaint is that they really push the feed to the bulls. People who have seen 004 say that his feet are horrible. Most farms want to raise high growth bulls that pass on their genetics. SAV has bulls accomplish this. People like SAV bulls, just fine. You just have to acknowledge most folks aren't going to feed their cattle like they do. The answer to your question; TC Ranch. They produce some nice thick bulls (I'm not bashing, Dividend and Stockman are two of my favorites). What is a monster 7+ frame with no width, or 5 + that cant fit through a barn door?
simangus23
Well-known member
"BTW SimAngus I will call you the next time a customer of mine picks the smallest bull or heifer in the pen and says the others are too big.. Most cattleman still get paid by the POUND at weaning, the reason Cope may want a big bull to sell some heavy weight steers and get paid".
jscunn
Ya know J-- when you pull your head out of your rope bag and realize what kinda money those large frame cows cost you in the pasture- you will then realize you are not making the most use of your forage availability. let me explain this to you---
ok 100 cows weighing 1500 lbs/ cows eating 3% of the bw = 45 lbs per day of forage
45 lbs x 365 = 16425 per cow x 100 = 1,642,500 -- say you have land that produces 600 lbs of forage per acre year = 2737 acres.
they wean 100 calves no creep weighing in at 650lbs -- lets say you get 1.00 just to make it even which = $650 x 100 head = $65,000.
you have the same amount of forage availability same land area etc except you run moderate frame cattle around 5 to 6 max
These cows weigh in at 1100 to 1200 lbs eating 35 lbs per day of forage which = 12775 per cow
35 x 365 x 100 = 1,277,500 say you have land that produces 600 lbs of forage per acre year= 2130 acres. pssst ya got 607 acres more now.and you have another 364,200 lbs of forage and instead of running just 100 large frame cows you can run 135 cows on that same piece of ground.
they wean 135 calves no creep weighing in at 550lbs --- lets say you get 1.00 just to make it even which = $550 x 135 = $74,250
Now what do you think about those large frame cows? Are you making the most of your forage? heck NO-- you just keep buying those large frame cows and frame score 7 and 8 Bulls buddy.
best regards---- Sim
jscunn
Ya know J-- when you pull your head out of your rope bag and realize what kinda money those large frame cows cost you in the pasture- you will then realize you are not making the most use of your forage availability. let me explain this to you---
ok 100 cows weighing 1500 lbs/ cows eating 3% of the bw = 45 lbs per day of forage
45 lbs x 365 = 16425 per cow x 100 = 1,642,500 -- say you have land that produces 600 lbs of forage per acre year = 2737 acres.
they wean 100 calves no creep weighing in at 650lbs -- lets say you get 1.00 just to make it even which = $650 x 100 head = $65,000.
you have the same amount of forage availability same land area etc except you run moderate frame cattle around 5 to 6 max
These cows weigh in at 1100 to 1200 lbs eating 35 lbs per day of forage which = 12775 per cow
35 x 365 x 100 = 1,277,500 say you have land that produces 600 lbs of forage per acre year= 2130 acres. pssst ya got 607 acres more now.and you have another 364,200 lbs of forage and instead of running just 100 large frame cows you can run 135 cows on that same piece of ground.
they wean 135 calves no creep weighing in at 550lbs --- lets say you get 1.00 just to make it even which = $550 x 135 = $74,250
Now what do you think about those large frame cows? Are you making the most of your forage? heck NO-- you just keep buying those large frame cows and frame score 7 and 8 Bulls buddy.
best regards---- Sim
novatech
Well-known member
I would really like to see what you could do with those number by simply improving their feed conversion ratio.simangus23":2t87vhgr said:
lakading
Well-known member
Sim, of course your numbers are going to back up your point of view. Only one problem I see. You're using a constant for feed consumption, but not for % weaned. If you used a constant for both, the smaller framed cows would make you $68,250. So you're a little over 3 grand ahead without knowing about any grading/grid premiums, increased death loss figures from running more head, etc.
Now, if you're gonna claim that smaller framed cows can produce a proportionately bigger calf, then you better prove to me that the larger framed cattle can't keep flesh on less than 3% bw of forage. Not saying you can't. Just saying, don't offer up slanted numbers that support your view without real proof.
Now, if you're gonna claim that smaller framed cows can produce a proportionately bigger calf, then you better prove to me that the larger framed cattle can't keep flesh on less than 3% bw of forage. Not saying you can't. Just saying, don't offer up slanted numbers that support your view without real proof.
simangus23":2usdatyw said:
A little tweaked but sraight out of the pharo handbook did you get your did you get your copy yesterday :?: I don't really see were the bulls you a talking about in the hot angus bulls topic 1407 and 878 fit into to this that much maybe 878 a little but 1407 :roll: Some maternal angus cows bred to a more terminal simmental bull might work give you the best of both worlds for efficent cows decent weaning weight and some feed lot performance then you could even keep your name.
