AI question from first timer for mixed herd

[Midtenn]

Hi, I'm new to this board seeking advice from the experts. I have a small mixed herd of around 40-50 cows and my goal is to get them more balanced, efficient, and profitable. Planning to grow herd by 10 to 15 cows each year to get up around 80-100 head. I've been looking at various angus AI sires to use this first time. They are all good producing cows, just not very even. It seems to me first I need to divide my cattle in to about 3 groups and the question I have pertains to "Have I picked the right sire for each group?" Keep in mind I'll be selling the steers and retaining acceptable females. May introduce heterosis next year or year after, once things are more balanced.

Group 1: 33% of herd consists of: smaller cows (900-1050#) needing more frame and milk production. A couple in this group are 1200 but need more milk and docility. These are straight angus. Do I need to go ahead now and introduce brangus to this group?

Group 2: 33% of herd is 7-8 frame cattle with some ear or 6+ frame charlois. Need added carcass quality, need milk and size reduced, but not wanting to sacrifice profit from good steer calves.

Group 3: 33% - about half this group is a hair small with too much milk. Other half is a hair too big with not quite enough milk

My pick for group 1 is RB TOUR OF DUTY, second is JINDRA DOUBLE VISION. Can my smaller cows handle these bulls?
My pick fro group 2 is KCF BENNETT. Am I sacrificing too much steer size just to get good replacement females? I Would also be using him on this year's heifers. My second pick for this group is SAV THUNDERBIRD
My ppick for group 3 is SAV THUNDERBIRD........S CHISUM is second pick for this group
Desired milk for my area would be 17-25 on the angus scale

Am I making this too complicated? Maybe I just pick one bull that's exactly where I want the entire herd to be, but it seems it would take longer to get where I want to be.

Thank You and please offer any suggestions.

 

[Ebenezer]

I would go at it another way. Visit around and find somebody fairly close to you selling bulls who feeds about like you and has cows you would die for. Buy a bull or two from them out of cows that you think are ideal even if you had to buy an aged bull that they had pretty much used enough. Make your progress with greater overall uniformity, some built in environmental fit and work at it on a multiyear plan. But it is just an opinion.

 

[bse]

Welcome
1st group look at WMR Timeless(16226527) he will add the frame, his females are keepers and steer calves will mash the scales.
2nd group VAR Index(17513381) full of carcass, milk 41 and will moderate them.
3rd group I'd go back to Timeless let him fix them in both directions.
If the KCF Bennet you mentioned is Performer(14885809) and you can get the semen on him he will do a lot of things right for you, makes great females and a scale smasher on steers I'd breed them all to him.

 

[Midtenn]

I would go at it another way. Visit around and find somebody fairly close to you selling bulls who feeds about like you and has cows you would die for. Buy a bull or two from them out of cows that you think are ideal even if you had to buy an aged bull that they had pretty much used enough. Make your progress with greater overall uniformity, some built in environmental fit and work at it on a multiyear plan. But it is just an opinion.

Thank you Ebenezer. That's sort of what I'm doing right now (and have always done). I have what I consider a good cow-maker bull, other than wish he had more length. Son of SAV Bismark. And he's out of a really nice cow. I do think he will moderate my bigger cows, but not sure he will bring up my smaller cows enough. His milk EPD is right where I want every cow to be. But keep in mind he's very low accuracy so who knows what he'll pass on. I had 8 fall calves by him BW so far is between 70 to 85 regardless of cow size. They look good and are growing. So we'll see. Maybe I don't need to change anything. Appreciate your advice and I may very well go that route, but I would like to hear others opinions on bulls in case I decide on the AI route.

 

[Midtenn]

Welcome
1st group look at WMR Timeless(16226527) he will add the frame, his females are keepers and steer calves will mash the scales.
2nd group VAR Index(17513381) full of carcass, milk 41 and will moderate them.
3rd group I'd go back to Timeless let him fix them in both directions.
If the KCF Bennet you mentioned is Performer(14885809) and you can get the semen on him he will do a lot of things right for you, makes great females and a scale smasher on steers I'd breed them all to him.

Thank You for reply. I was referring to KCF BENNETT ABSOLUTE for group 2, sorry about that. But do you think he would bring those Brangus, Charlois and Gert cows down too small? Is 41 milk a little high to be adding to those type cows? I'm going to go check all those bulls out. Thanks.

 

[torogmc81]

I would not consider Tour of Duty proven, his CED has dropped dramatically and BW increased, just an obsevrvation. I believe he's a 6.7 frame FWIW. Plus, good luck getting semen on him, from what I've heard it usually on back order.

I agree with you on Absolute (we just added him to our tank), just ask CP. Also might want to look at SAV Mustang for group two.
You also might want to browse the recent discussion on Top 5 Angus cow makers, there's a lot of good posts in that thread

 

[wbvs58]

I can vouch for SAV Thunderbird. I have used him 3 years in a row now and will probably use him again this year on my heifers. They are born easily and then take off. They are very well rounded and stylish calves with a lot of muscle. The Australian EBV has milk at 17 with breed average being 14.
Ken

 

[Ebenezer]

I would go at it another way. Visit around and find somebody fairly close to you selling bulls who feeds about like you and has cows you would die for. Buy a bull or two from them out of cows that you think are ideal even if you had to buy an aged bull that they had pretty much used enough. Make your progress with greater overall uniformity, some built in environmental fit and work at it on a multiyear plan. But it is just an opinion.

Thank you Ebenezer. That's sort of what I'm doing right now (and have always done). I have what I consider a good cow-maker bull, other than wish he had more length. Son of SAV Bismark. And he's out of a really nice cow. I do think he will moderate my bigger cows, but not sure he will bring up my smaller cows enough. His milk EPD is right where I want every cow to be. But keep in mind he's very low accuracy so who knows what he'll pass on. I had 8 fall calves by him BW so far is between 70 to 85 regardless of cow size. They look good and are growing. So we'll see. Maybe I don't need to change anything. Appreciate your advice and I may very well go that route, but I would like to hear others opinions on bulls in case I decide on the AI route.

You seem to want uniform cattle as a precursor to the wider question.

Corrector breeding will not change the range of type into the future generations as it merely refreshes the gene mix. Two and three generations away and you will see the range bloom. Just like planting seeds that you saved from a hybridized parent. Or try an extreme calving ease bulls and see what the 2nd and 3rd generation hold for you.

Type breeding to a desired type bull or bulls is a slower process but it begins to refine replacements to be more like the correct type. You see the bullseye, you breed with a bulleye and the population will begin to concentrate on the bullseye.

The extreme end, for many, is linebreeding for prepotent results, hopefully good but sometimes not. Even if you can find one AI sire that is well proven, knowingly sires what you really want and works in your area very well, too, the uniformity of breeding will pay big dividends in future generations. You can find bulls that will sire the preferred weaning weights and then you have a base to build on if that is your sales window.

If mere high EPD X low EPD = desired EPD worked great, it would have cured most problems 20 years ago. Today we use the same tools, expect the same results and still need to seek improvement next year. Or else the industry sells value on prefix and is not really about quality or improvement.

 

[cow pollinater]

I'm with Ebeneezer. Nine times out of ten corrective mating is nothing but a sales tool.Always breed towards your ideal animal.
You're making the mistake of assuming that genetics will average(don't feel bad, we've ALLL done it. :tiphat: ) Heritability doesn't work like that. If it did I'd be 6'2" with brown hair and brown eyes as both of my parents are tall and dark but instead I'm 5'7" with blue eyes and blond/red hair and people tell me I look like my granddad. Stature is around 40% heritable so it is entirely possible for your corrective matings to bring out genetics that are not expressed and amplify them in the negative and then you have a swinging pendulum of genetics where you're always trying to go back the other direction. It really gets fun when you mess with feet and legs and udder traits which are only around 15-25% heritable so you might not see any improvement at all for multiple generations and then all of a sudden all of the genetic input shows up in one animal. :banana:
On the other hand, if you breed to the ideal with every mating, your chances of averaging your genetics to where you can expect a fairly similar expression are much greater in time. There will be outliers for a few generations but you'll have a constant to fall back on.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

And I'd be a 5'10" squatty body rather than the tall, sculpted Adonis-like figure that I am today.

 

[Till-Hill]

On 50 cows no way am I going to AI for 1 mating. Buy the best bull you can for the money and do it that way but I sure the heck ain't going to bore myself to death breeding every cow to the same bull. The day I do that is the day I quit raising cattle. Corrective mating will take some time but that's what makes it fun for me. JMO

 

[bse]

T H just asking a question here, in a commercial setting youd A I, 50 cows to 50 different bulls, that's A lot of tweaking, but don't you think 1 ol bull is gonna have the same result as AI'ing to one bull, kinda boring. But with A I you can pick a few to try and do a few different things. Just saying.

 

[Till-Hill]

T H just asking a question here, in a commercial setting youd A I, 50 cows to 50 different bulls, that's A lot of tweaking, but don't you think 1 ol bull is gonna have the same result as AI'ing to one bull, kinda boring. But with A I you can pick a few to try and do a few different things. Just saying.

3 or 4 is what I'd do. Used about 10-12 if I remember right on buddy's 70 last year. Sold calves last week he had 24 heifers in one draft at sale of 75 head he sold. (he bought some cows that calved earlier than AI'd ones later) That's pretty impressive but then this year he went and AI'd all to one bull. His call not mine but weight and color wise we did pretty well. We were trying clean out tank too.

 

[Midtenn]

Thanks to everybody for the suggestions. It's appreciated. I see the benefits of using 3 different bulls for my mixed breed herd. But what ebenezer said about working toward a constant also makes sense to me even with ai. Simply because I can't buy a .95 acc. Bull that is the perfect constant I'm looking for. Still undecided though. Thanks to everyone who replied.

 

[Son of Butch]

I like your thinking of setting a goal, uniformity, and then limiting the number of bulls to achieve your goal of uniformity.
2 bulls... one for replacements - balanced, efficient and profitable...perhaps Thunderbird...and one bull for terminal...(?)

Then finding 2 bulls that work well on Thunderbird daughters when the time comes.
Again one for replacements and one for terminal.

 

[gizmom]

Midtenn

We used several different bulls each year for our AI work. I spend countless hours looking at the pedigree, EPD's and phneotype to pick the bull used for each mating.





When we started we did not have the consistency and uniformity in our herd that we have now. So I think what your doing does work it just takes time. Out of this group of 37 heifers we have two that don't really fit with the other heifers, one is big and one is small so the tweaking never ends.

gizmom

 

[Ebenezer]

Midtenn

We used several different bulls each year for our AI work. I spend countless hours looking at the pedigree, EPD's and phneotype to pick the bull used for each mating.





When we started we did not have the consistency and uniformity in our herd that we have now. So I think what your doing does work it just takes time. Out of this group of 37 heifers we have two that don't really fit with the other heifers, one is big and one is small so the tweaking never ends.

gizmom

Not throwing stones but with your recent bull test results do you think that studying pedigrees and matching numbers without other means contributed to the poor performance of the bulls? I guess I am wondering what % success you have if what I assume were the better bull calves from the last crop disappointed? I even looked up the two bulls left in the recent FL sale. One had a REA of 8.8 and one was FS less than 5. Will the half sib heifers build and help the herd knowing those results? I have found that just using bull via AI is not always a cure-all and can be disappointing. Most posters here, and I am assuming, are looking to make commercial cattle they raise or the breeding stock they supply to commercial operations be as profitable as possible. I know that some do not see it that way.

 

[gizmom]

Ebenzer

Not throwing stones but with your recent bull test results do you think that studying pedigrees and matching numbers without other means contributed to the poor performance of the bulls? I guess I am wondering what % success you have if what I assume were the better bull calves from the last crop disappointed? I even looked up the two bulls left in the recent FL sale. One had a REA of 8.8 and one was FS less than 5. Will the half sib heifers build and help the herd knowing those results? I have found that just using bull via AI is not always a cure-all and can be disappointing. Most posters here, and I am assuming, are looking to make commercial cattle they raise or the breeding stock they supply to commercial operations be as profitable as possible. I know that some do not see it that way.

The two bulls left in the Florida bull test were not AI bulls they were both out of a bull bred and raised on our farm. The four bulls that didn't make the test were all ET calves two from embryos purchased from the Sinclair program. Your point is taken we want to add more REA into our herd the two calves you referenced in the bull test our both out of the same sire, one had a 12.3 REA the other a 8.8 so that tells me to breed both of these cows to a bull that has more carcass. As to the rest of the bulls in the test we beat that horse to death in the 2015 bull thread. An update on the 4 bulls that didn't make the test, we received a call from a past customer before we had the chance to pick up the bulls that didn't make the sale. He wanted to purchase three of the bulls, but we had made the decision to use the B35 bull, so he purchased the two A47 X 807J calves and picked them up from the test. The other calf and his flush brother that we had here at the house are culls and we steered them. Needless to say we took a loss on these bulls.

I am going to copy over some of that conversation showing some of your comments in red, for the rest of the conversation you can refer to the 2015 bull test thread.

Test ID 1437 our bull ID # B35 - Final ADG 2.92 final WDA 2.45 final index ratio of 89 ok I have to admit I had sure wanted this calf to do better, he was on the short list to bring home to use on heifers. I am not going to say that we won't use him but he isn't as high on my list as he was when he left the farm back in June. We purchased this calf as an embryo from the Sinclair dispersal sale, he is out of a cow that is as good as you will find, I really didn't know much about the bull side of the equation on this mating but hoped for more performance. This calf grew like a house on fire from birth to weaning but sure fell off from weaning to yearling.

Test ID 1435 our bull ID #B36 -Final ADG 2.50 final WDA 2.31 final index ratio of 80 - This is the first of two flush brothers out of a cow we purchased at the Kinsington dispersal sale and OCC Juneau 807J. Both these calves grew great from birth to weaning but sure fell off the charts from weaning to yearling. To say I am disappointed in the results would be an understatement.

Test ID 1432 our bull ID #B15 - Final ADG 2.45 final WDA 2.29 final index ratio of 79 - The second of the flush brothers, I haven't seen the calves since June but will be interested to see how they look.

Test ID 1433 our bull ID #B33 - Final ADG 2.04 final WDA 2.30 final index ratio of 72 I just hate the results on this calf, he just tanked and I have a flush brother at the house that did the same thing. This calf and his brother will both be sent to town, they just are not going to make bulls. The heifer mates to them look really good, but I have to wonder about them after watching these two bull calves.

Well I said I would post results good bad and ugly, jscunn made a statement that sometimes your the windshield and sometimes your the bug, I guess we are feeling like the bugs this year.

by Ebenezer » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:30 am
How much does individual performance really tell you about a bull's ability to transmit traits to his offspring? Another way to ask: is every top bull in a bull test the ones that have always sired the best calves? And what do you give up on maternal and traits like fertility to always select for terminal traits in the next herd sire?

Ebenezer

Your comments are why I have said many times we will probably never have a bull win a performance test. We breed for balance, if we lean toward any trait it is going to be maternal. To us one of the most important pieces of the puzzle is the mamma cow, if you start chasing nothing but growth then your going to lose some of that mothering ability. But as was proven out with some of the bulls we put in this years test, you can go to far the other direction and give up to much in production. It is a fine line we walk as a breeder, and by golly you have to pay attention and not get so caught up that you don't see the forest for the trees. I have three flush heifers to the B33 bull here at the house, these are some highly maternal genetics, but from what I am seeing with the bulls a little to maternal, the heifers will be bred to add performance I will sure be watching them closely to see if they are going to get to stay or go.

edited to correct that the heifer are flush mates to the B33 not out of the B33 bull.

[Honestly, I would not be afraid to use any of the bulls you mentioned because of individual numbers or performance. If that is all that matters in selection then the pedigree information is totally worthless. Yet we know that the genes are what we use to build lines and to cross lines. They are just out of their element, picked up a bug, got low on the pecking order in the shuffle but the quality of genes are still there.
Ebenezer/color]

Would need to know more if the bloodlines/genes worked here and if I needed more bulls. Feed efficiency could be the factor - needed more to gain more, poor environmental fit to start, less immune system, ... ? But a good question. I know that some lines are not going to cut the mustard everywhere. You are probably right to try the heifers, cull these bulls and look for genetics that are a proven fit for FL and the SE USA. If they did poorly there they would not be much to try on fescue here - another guess/opinion.
Ebenezer
Cowhand

The question that started this thread was not about bulls it was about using AI bulls to obtain uniformity within a herd. We have used AI to do that and the picture I posted of the heifers was an example of the consistency and uniformity in the size of our heifers. We also use our own bulls to clean up the AI work, last year we used two bulls out of the same cow, one an ET calf out of our 658 X EXT the other the natural calf out of 658 X 6149 the third bull used was a 831 X Juneau 807J 831 and 658 are maternal sisters. This year we are using the B35 bull from the bull test on our heifers, the Juneau 807J bull on the older cows and another ET son out of 658 X 0035 on our two and three year old cows. So I would imagine this is helping us with the uniformity of our calves.

gizmom

 

[Ebenezer]

The question that started this thread was not about bulls it was about using AI bulls to obtain uniformity within a herd. We have used AI to do that and the picture I posted of the heifers was an example of the consistency and uniformity in the size of our heifers.

Good deal. The answer to Midtenn's question was uniformity of cows: production, milk, calves, commercial herd and not of heifers. Just experience, but the heifers can look pretty uniform for a lot of folks because they are basically not producing anything. They do make a nice picture, many buyers go gaga over heifers and bred heifers. They are pretty, they have unknown potential, phenotypically they will come nearer looking alike then than any other time in their lives. Heifer fallout for most is going to be 50% +/- by 3YO and all of that will not be due to phenotype but due to malfunction. I would not ever rate a herd's success on the look of the heifers but on the function of the mature cows. Just saying.

Long tern Midtenn wants uniform producing cows and uniform calf crops. He has a greater hurdle than you or I do with purebred cattle because he has to start with a larger range of type due to the influence of breeds. It is somewhat a deal of herding of cats to start. If he knows where he wants his herd to be in 3 or 4 years he, and this is an opinion, needs to breed to a bull or bulls that are most typical of what he wants. "Target bulls", if you like a term. Bringing in segregated genes from multiple herds and multiple sires, live or AI, is not the quickest way to uniformity. And to be honest, half brothers from one source can be highly variable, too, if the cow herd or the sire is not stable. So, wouldn't it be grand if he could find a source of bulls which were environmental fits, uniformly bred, the source herd was cows like he wanted and progress was as swift as possible? I do not see that speed of improvement in the use of multiple mainstream AI bulls. If it worked with high efficiency, wouldn't EPDs and EBVs have solved cattle needs and problems in a couple of generations back in the 1980s? Today, breeders are still fixing the problems with either the same or even enhanced tools. And they are still fixing them.

 

[gizmom]

Ebenezer

As always you make some very valid points. We are all striving for the same thing we may not go at in in the same manner but in truth we are all trying to breed the perfect cow or the perfect bull, which in truth is impossible. But we continue the quest to make them as perfect as we can. We hopefully learn from our mistakes, which for me have been many and try not to make the same one again.

gizmom