Aggression vs. Play

[Nesikep]

Brute, so when a cow doesn't want her calf, but another cow's calf.. what do you do?

What about people who send their cattle onto range... they gotta be branded and identified, and if you have 100 momma cows and 100 calves in a pen, you aren't going to know which is which, so it's too late. If you want to tag 100 calves and figure out which is which, you certainly aren't going to be doing it alone... if you get them at birth, it's no problem.

You sound a lot like Cowgirl8.. you know how to do it, and anyone who doesn't do it like you do must be a hobby farmer and cant' know which end of the cow gets up first.


Back to the original topic, if the cow makes you uncomfortable, get rid of her, whether it's play or aggression.


I just ask my cows to know the difference between me and a predator.. I have no use for nutcases... Yeah, the guys in the video, especially the guy shooting the video could quite possibly have been doing something more useful at the time. That kind of momma cow is the kind that ran me into the fence 2 weeks ago.. and her calf (if she had one) would have been 10 months old...

 

[Muddy]

It's MUCH easier to tagging newborn calves while their mother cow is right by the newborn so you can record both cow and calf's ear numbers instead of 200-300lbs calf which won't be near their mother while working in the corral so you have no idea whose calf belongs to. BTW we rarely doctoring our cattle unless they had a birth trouble (breech birth or first timers) or their calf is sick.

 

[Brute 23]

Brute, so when a cow doesn't want her calf, but another cow's calf.. what do you do?

What about people who send their cattle onto range... they gotta be branded and identified, and if you have 100 momma cows and 100 calves in a pen, you aren't going to know which is which, so it's too late. If you want to tag 100 calves and figure out which is which, you certainly aren't going to be doing it alone... if you get them at birth, it's no problem.

Shoot the cow in the head that wants the wrong calf, take her calf to some one who jacks with bottle calves, and let the other cow calf be on their way. Cows and calves mix all the time. I've seen grandmothers milking their off-springs calves, 2 or 3 hanging off one cows. It doesn't matter as long as they are getting taken care of. I've had some play tricks on me when we were matching up especially on the solid blacks but that's why I put a description and sex. Just a little extra info to help. A lot of times you catch them in the pasture with the right momma and it all works out.

If they are in the pen its done. You separate the cows and calves. Some times you can literally wait a couple hours. Start turning 10 calves at time to the cows and write the numbers down. When they have been separated a couple hours and them calves get hungry, momma's bag gets full, they go to each other like opposite ends of a magnet. It works with 30 cows or 300. You can't have 300 momma calving and be out there catching every calf as it hits the ground with out full time hands.

The argument for that not working is people who put cattle in areas to calve that don't have pens. Which I understand also. We have to wait some times until the cattle get rotated around to pastures close to the pens. That's not the vast majority.

I'm not going to get in to a pissing match over who's hat is bigger with you. Lets just say I've had my fair share of experiences with high headed cattle. Have you ever met cattle down here on the Gulf Coast? That's all that can survive. :tiphat: (... and being a little high headed is not bad if you know how to handle it)

 

[Muddy]

I think Brute 23 might be cowgirl8's husband or doesn't know how the operations works up north. Obviously it worked extremely well for us and most folks.

 

[Brute 23]

I think Brute 23 might be cowgirl8's husband or doesn't know how the operations works up north. Obviously it worked extremely well for us and most folks.

I'm not saying it works for every one. Don't put words in my mouth.

... and I still have not heard a valid point from either of you two on why. Dun made a valid point. Gathering weights, measurements, ect. Another valid point is access to pens. I haven't read any thing out of you two. Which is just like I said how most people are... they don't even know why they do things.... "well because we all do it like that up north".... :lol2: Ya, ok keep riding Dun's coat tails

I respected CG8 because at least she was not a band wagon rider and no matter how crazy it was... could tell you why she did some thing.

 

[Brute 23]

Also... I've done it... still do it if necessary... your way. Have you ever tried my way?

 

[Muddy]

You already ignored all valid points Nesikep and I made. It's a necessary for me to tagging the calves at birth so we can tell who's the momma and the calf because we are going to split up the herd in two different herds. Last thing I want is send wrong calves to wrong pastures. It didn't make any senses to wait for the calves to be in 200-300lbs because they're so similar and same age. Our herd is 90% black. Also many operations here are calving their cows out in the range far away from the pens. Were talking about 500-1,000 head here and you want to wait for the calves to be in 200-300lbs to be identified? I'm not waiting for few hours for the calves bellowing for their mommas as I have other things to do.

Yes she did some thing, simply because she's special but she's leaving some money on the table.

That said I did tried your way and they didn't work good. No idea whose calves belongs to even at weaning time.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I guess we do it wrong too. The calves are born and we leave them alone. They don't get worked until they're roughly 2-3 months old at which time they get tagged. We then match them to their mothers. I'm not too concerned with weights which is good because we don't own any scales.

Now if I lived on the farm full time I'd most likely follow dun's protocol.

 

[Brute 23]

You already ignored all valid points Nesikep and I made. It's a necessary for me to tagging the calves at birth so we can tell who's the momma and the calf because we are going to split up the herd in two different herds. Last thing I want is send wrong calves to wrong pastures. It didn't make any senses to wait for the calves to be in 200-300lbs because they're so similar and same age. Our herd is 90% black. Also many operations here are calving their cows out in the range far away from the pens. Were talking about 500-1,000 head here and you want to wait for the calves to be in 200-300lbs to be identified? I'm not waiting for few hours for the calves bellowing for their mommas as I have other things to do.

Yes she did some thing, simply because she's special but she's leaving some money on the table.

That said I did tried your way and they didn't work good. No idea whose calves belongs to even at weaning time.

You have time to follow 500-1000 head around and tag calves as they hit the ground but no time to wait a couple hours?

When yall split the heard yall do it horse back in the pasture? As I said, I under stand no access to facilities.

Why did you wait until weaning time? I have caught cattle on places when I was busy and the calves got bigger than they should have, split the cows and calves, put them back together to get my numbers for the spreadsheet, and split them again to wean and sell. Its just a matter of running them back and forth through the pens. Its not ideal but it can be done and its still faster than following a bunch of cattle around waiting for calves to drop.

Im getting a lot of double talk. That's why I keep asking.

 

[Muddy]

Tagging calves is for identification reasons, do I have to continue?

I never said I have 500-1,000 head but apparently it worked very well for these folks. I just said I don't have time to put calves in the pen, waiting for the momma cows standing by the pen. I tagged the calves in mornings only.

Few years ago we decided to not tagging the calves at birth as we tagged them around 200-300lbs... Worst mistake for us since we are building the herd numbers up. No friggening idea whose heifers belongs to since they all looks same as we wanted keep great females out of great cows. Ended up culled three out of five heifers.

It's clearly your operation is different from mine. But I'm glad I don't have to do your ways as it won't work for us.

 

[dun]

When we ran cows on range in the foothills we only saw them every couple of day (if we were lucky). We tagged them as we found them. Roped the calves if needed, and the cows too sometimes to keep them off of whoever was tagging. We didn;t have a lot of management, a cow might go a year without weaning a calf. Frequently we didn;t know at weaning which calf belonged to who. That 35-40 years ago. Now we don;t run near as many cattle and not on range. We're more interested in bettering the product we're producing now then we were then. When we would gather the cows to pull them of the lease, if we caught most of them and got them removed we felt we had done a pretty good job. Some would die, some would just be so buried in the junk that we wouldn't see them for a year. But that was then and this is now.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

We don't tag right away, but because we have seedstock, we do weigh them within the first 12 hours. We only calve 10 head or so at a time in the registered herd, so tagging is just not necessary. Plus, we often have to put ear covers and calf coats on the calves, so our big a** tags just get in the way. My brother's commercial herd, though, is much larger and the calves get tagged ASAP. We do not give newborns any injections or dip navels. Have not had a reason to. If one shows illness, of course it is treated, but for the most part, it is just not necessary for our stock. We have some cows that are a bit testy with a newborn calf, but nothing to scary. We want them to be easy going enough to work with them/ the calf if necessary, but have some maternal instinct (we do have some big predators up here). I guess it just comes down to what each producer/breeder is willing to tolerate. For us, it is a happy medium when calving. When she is dry or the calf if more than a few days old though, we have no time for a wench of a cow. With young children in the family and a mother with a hip replacement working the stock daily, anything that makes me worry is on a truck to town, done. :2cents:

 

[Brute 23]

Ya every one has to do what works for them. A lot of people do things because they think that's how every one does it. So and so has 1000 head and that's how they do it so it must be right. That's far from the case.

 

[Nesikep]

I never said waiting was 'wrong'.. if it works for you, I don't give a rodent's rectum.. What other people do doesn't concern me.

I find it offensive you tell me I'm doing it wrong, or don't know what I am doing because I do it differently.

I don't feel like wrestling 300 lb steer calves to the ground to castrate them, or having a ton of bull calves around.. How's that for a reason to work them at birth?
If I find a sick calf, and I've tagged it, I know immediately which cow is the mother... My goal is to have cookie-cutter calves.. I'm not quite there yet, but they're getting hard to tell apart, and I only have 25.

If a cow doesn't want her calf and steals another calf, yeah, she gets a trip to the sale barn, but I'm not up for losing a calf for that year, or shooting her in the head... You must have a really big hat to afford that.

Since my cows are good natured (except a couple), I tag and band the calf in the first day... SOMETIMES, the calf is laying down and I can band it without even rolling it on it's side, though usually when the tagger hits, it's the end of that.


The way you describe your method of matching cows and calves works, I could perfectly well do it that way, but I don't see how that saves much time... and the bigger you are the more time it's going to take

My internet sucks, this was supposed to be posted about 5 posts ago

 

[Brute 23]

That makes sense if you are tagging and banding at the same time.

 

[TCRanch]

I guess we do it wrong too. The calves are born and we leave them alone. They don't get worked until they're roughly 2-3 months old at which time they get tagged. We then match them to their mothers. I'm not too concerned with weights which is good because we don't own any scales.

Now if I lived on the farm full time I'd most likely follow dun's protocol.

Right & wrong are subjective: whatever works for you/your operation. We live on the ranch & there's just 2 of us so we tag/band day 1 or 2 - when we can still easily catch them. I want to know each cow/calf pair because I keep diligent records & want to monitor their progress: Does she raise a healthy calf? What is the weaning weight? Has the docility or other desirable traits transferred? Which ones are cull candidates (specifically heifer calves because we retain/raise/breed our own)?

Re: recording birth weights. Ummm, not as much but since we're commercial it's not a big deal. Tried using a scale but was traumatized when the numbers came dangerously close to a deuce (Hubby recovering from shoulder surgery so I had to hold 'em). Enter the Birthweight Hoofometer Tape! One side for bull calves, the other for heifers =/- 7lbs. Clearly not accurate but close enough when we do use it. BTW there is a weight tape for cattle, which would probably work for your 300 lb calves.

 

[Rafter S]

When I first find a calf I record the birth, indicating the date, if it's a bull or heifer, the dam of course, and a brief description. I vaccinate and castrate my calves when the youngest is 2 - 3 weeks old, so the oldest will be maybe 3 months old. I eartag them then, one color in the left ear for heifers, and a different color in the right for steers. Then over the next week or so I watch them and record which calf has which tag. This works well for me, but different things work well for different people and different situations.

 

[boondocks]

Getting back to the OP: as someone who has only been at this for a few years myself, I can appreciate the instinct to run. I have had to train myself to be authoritative about my space and not to cede territory when one gets into my space, but to make THEM back off.

Trying to outrun a cow is not a good idea. Tell your wife to hold her ground, even take a step toward the cow and tell it NO. A big stick helps (to brandish, or if that doesn't work, bop them). In short, make sure they know all the time who is boss. If actually charged (you will know it), take a step or two TOWARD the animal and make yourself "big". If it's not a bluff charge and the animal keeps coming, hold your ground and step to one side at the last moment. I tell everyone who comes in the field with me not to run. And they all have a stick (and a cell phone).

Go back out right away with your wife and have her stomp around and sing loudly with a big stick so she gets her mojo on. Have her go up specifically to the "offender" and back her up a bit just 'coz.

I'm not sure if it applies to your and your spouse, but one of the issues we've had is that different people have different comfort zones and sometimes one person lets a cow get a bit close (maybe even gives it some scratches) then the next person (who isn't comfortable with that level of closeness) thinks the cow is too pushy. The cow is then "confused." If your wife doesn't like them too close, and she's part of the operation, then IMHO no one should be "training" them to come real close (not saying that's what happened here).

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Good post boon.

I was forced to used the sidestep move myself a few months ago as I had a panicked/angry cow on a direct path towards me with bad intentions. It was rather startling and I was very much relieved to see she didn't whirl around for a second shot.