Acceptable Loss Rate Heifers Calving

[Bigdog13]

This is my first year in the beef cattle business, my ranch is located in east Texas. I don't live there and therefore I have a ranch manger; he is trustworthy, hard working, knowledgeable guy and I've known him my whole life. I bought 40 cows, 20 calves (all in good shape no issues, they are starting make good looking heifers from one ranch, I bought another 20 bred Brangus heifers, AI'ed to an Angus bull. I've been told by my neighbors and my grandfather before he passed that the 20 Brangus heifers were about as good a set of cows as you can buy, paid a premium for a real good set. I bought them off a big ranch with very good stock, I was told they were all due in late March. Well we've already had 7 calves drop. We lost 2 of those calves in birth and a heifer. Both calves that died weighed over 80lbs. My ranch manager did all he could to save that heifer, had the vet out, hope it was some nerve damage but she didn't make it. I really don't think my ranch manager is doing anything wrong, he happened on the last still born right as she was first starting to calf and it still died, he weighed that one at 86lbs!

I helped my grandfather when I was younger but he always had older cows, he never retained heifers so I have no experience with 1st time calves personally on loss rates. It seems odd to me that the Brangus cows bred to supposedly low birth weight bull would be throwing 80+ calves twice in 7 births, both bull calves by the way. Diet of these heifers has been almost entirely hay since November. We supplement with 2 bags of protein twice a week but thats split between 20 cows. Vet who came out a couple days ago said the heifers were in good shape, not overweight but not underweight either, she called it ideal calving condition weight in fact. Also odd that I was told they were all due in late March and we have 7 on the ground already. Do people think this is bad coincidence or intentional decent by the seller? Any recourse with this ranch? Or is this like I suspect buyers remorse and lesson learned.

 

[Nesikep]

really hard to say.. All beginnings are tough.. When we started out we bought 12 bred heifers, lost 3 calves and a heifer the first year and had huge birthweights (the heifer we lost had a 110 lb bull calf).. the heifers were also not up to the size they should have been, but we didn't know which end of the cow gets up first back then either. I've had other heavy birthweights since (another 110 lb bull in a heifer) and have never lost another one

While 80lbs on a heifer may need some help, I don't see it as a 'cow killing' kind of birthweight either.
Perhaps a bull got into the heifer pen, and when they synched for AI they were already bred and didn't abort the existing calf? That bull may not have been intended for heifers.

I really don't know about any LEGAL recourse, but I would talk to them about it and see if they have any honor, and at least meet you halfway somewhere.. What may strengthen your argument is if you take a blood sample from the calves and get a paternity test done, which should match up with the advertised bull they were mated to.. if that doesn't happen, there may be a legal recourse if all else fails.

 

[Rafter S]

From what you said, it sounds like a bull got with those heifers a month or so before they were AI'd. I'd certainly talk to the seller about it. Hopefully he'll do something to make it right, but if not you probably don't have any recourse other than never doing business with him again.

 

[Ol' 243]

Subscribed

 

[dun]

Acceptable is zero. But 1 out of 20 would be OK, not ideal, but not horrible.
If they were truly AIed when it is claimed the ranch has P poor management. That would make me pretty suspicious of everything else about them.

 

[Bigfoot]

If I'm going to bring in outside stock, I prefer open heifers. I've been in a similar situation with breds myself.

 

[dun]

If I'm going to bring in outside stock, I prefer open heifers. I've been in a similar situation with breds myself.

When we buy at registered sales we only buy cows with a calf or open heifers.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Do people think this is bad coincidence or intentional decent by the seller? Any recourse with this ranch? Or is this like I suspect buyers remorse and lesson learned.

No idea.
Yes, always.
Review the outcome diplomatically with the sellers. They may step up. They may have ideas. Otherwise, call it tuition.

 

[Son of Butch]

Acceptable loss rate calving?
I wouldn't say acceptable but 5% is the expected rate for beef cattle
(Dairy - Holstein national average is 8.9% dead calves within 48 hours)

Small group numbers can be so misleading.
Many have hit over .400 for short periods of time, but it takes 502 at bats to qualify for a Major League batting title.
Last player to do it was Ted Williams with .406 in 1941
In 1991 he quipped "If I had known hitting .400 was going to be such a big deal, I would have done it again."

 

[Supa Dexta]

80 lbs is a low birth weight.

 

[True Grit Farms]

80 lbs is a low birth weight.

BS, that's some terrible advice and your full of bull. These are Brangus heifers bred to LB Angus bulls.

 

[dun]

80 lbs is a low birth weight.

BS, that's some terrible advice and your full of bull. These are Brangus heifers bred to LB Angus bulls.

You have to remember the differences in climate. Northern born calves are generally larger at birth then southern born calves.

 

[angus9259]

I actually have an easy time with heifers - but I breed them myself (as has been noted) so I know exactly what they are bred to. It's not at all unusual for me to get heifers to calve 10-12 days early based on the bull I choose but then I expect the calves to be proportionately smaller. For me to get an 80 lb calf 3-4 weeks early would never happen so I agree with the previous post that suggests they were bred even earlier than advertised - perhaps by 6-8 weeks earlier.

Recourse is a funny thing in animal husbandry because shyt surely happens and nature has a way of exerting it's power over us and making us all look stupid. That said, it's worth the question and a paternity test if the seller is amenable - as has been stated - to make adjustments if his advertisement of the heifers was misleading. My experience, however, tells me you probably chalk this up to "experience" and, as they say, "experience is a brutal instructor - she gives you the test first then teaches you the lesson".

Good luck to you. If the seller is as reputable as you hoped, it should work out fine. If they are not reputable and have already lied to you - there's not much hope. Court costs and time will soon exceed the value of your loss.

 

[creekdrive]

80 lbs is a low birth weight.

BS, that's some terrible advice and your full of bull. These are Brangus heifers bred to LB Angus bulls.

You have to remember the differences in climate. Northern born calves are generally larger at birth then southern born calves.

To me 80lbs is not too big for a heifer (our reds usually come 70-80lb and our blacks 75-85lb). And I completely realize that the climate affects the birth weight, but does it also change the ability of an animal to have a larger sized calf? Nobody that I know of pelvic measures their replacement heifers here, but if a heifer is pelvic measured to have the ability to have a 70lb calf in the south does it change to 80lb if you move her north? or vice versa? In my head that's not likely... but I could be totally wrong.

Bring the situation up to the seller and go from there. To have that many calving this early, something is not right.
Hope the rest of your calving goes better.

 

[Supa Dexta]

80 lbs is a low birth weight.

BS, that's some terrible advice and your full of bull. These are Brangus heifers bred to LB Angus bulls.

We're growing cows, not puppies. 80 IS a low BW. Look at a breed average, and then subtract whatever it takes to get to 80 lbs. Wow the math checks out; a 'low BW bull' would produce 80lb calves.

If you have cows that can't handle an 80lb calf thats your problem.... Because its exactly that - a problem. I've seen 14 month old heifers calve an 80 lb calf for crying out loud. If they're coming out at 60lbs there better be 2 of them in there.

 

[Muddy]

80lbs is OK for heifers, but preferred 70-75lbs on heifers. To me, 80lbs isn't a low birthweight, more like Moderate birthweight to me.

 

[ez14]

80 lbs is a low birth weight.

You have to remember the differences in climate. Northern born calves are generally larger at birth then southern born calves.

To me 80lbs is not too big for a heifer (our reds usually come 70-80lb and our blacks 75-85lb). And I completely realize that the climate affects the birth weight, but does it also change the ability of an animal to have a larger sized calf? Nobody that I know of pelvic measures their replacement heifers here, but if a heifer is pelvic measured to have the ability to have a 70lb calf in the south does it change to 80lb if you move her north? or vice versa? In my head that's not likely... but I could be totally wrong.

Bring the situation up to the seller and go from there. To have that many calving this early, something is not right.
Hope the rest of your calving goes better.

i don't really know for sure but the heifers on the dairy farm i work on seem to have more trouble calving in the winter so maybe temp has some thing to do with it?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Call him up and get the bulls registration number, type it in on the AAA.check out his epd's...might not help, but can't hurt....

 

[Nesikep]

80 lbs isn't a cow killing birthweight (or heifers)... I can't remember the last time I had an <80 lb calf here.. my herd average is 100 lbs on the button, and though I'd like it to come down 10 lbs, as long as the cows don't need help, I don't worry too much about it. Mega's first calf was a 110 lb bull calf, needed a little pull but didn't need to put chains on him.. Mega's 2 brothers were both 140 lbs and I have video to prove it was done in under 5 minutes... Last year I did have to help 3 out of 4 heifers calve, 2 needed the puller, the calves were 90 lbs (I knew going into it the bull wasn't a 'heifer safe' bull, but didn't have much choice).

 

[Aaron]

You southern boys need to remember that SD is a Canuck with Char cross cattle. Low bw to the exotic cattle boys here is under 100 lbs. You'll find lots of them calving in the 110-120 lb range. 140-160 lbs is on the 'big' side.

Edit: this is obviously weights on cows, but heifers aren't far behind in many cases.