2 Day old heifer calf with joint ill....

[nurseynicole]

So....my husband found a new calf Tues, still had part of the membrane on her head dried. She didn't appear to have nursed, her bag was even and fairly small. He noticed that her joints were all swollen talked to the vet who confirmed that this was joint ill. He immed attempted to bottle some commercial colostrum when he found her and she did suck a little but went ahead and tubed the rest. Vet started her on Baytril and said to do 3 daily doses and if she is alive at the end of that then she has a chance. I have been reading up and have found that typically you have to treat much longer than this?? I got some Banamine on Wed and we gave her a dose of that as well which helped immensely as he was shaking in the morning. We also gave her a dose of probios as well thinking it couldn't hurt. We dosed the Banamine by the bottle and gave 1ml, but I have been reading about the side effects a bit too. What dose and how often would you guys recommend? Our vet is fine but she is pretty tough. Most advice is treat minimally and it will probably die lol. Frustrates me to death! :devil2: She is up and moo'ing, was looking a the bull who walked up to the pen she is in so she is alert. Hoping that my good gut feeling isn't just denial.... Thanks!

 

[branguscowgirl]

I am not really understanding your post and the time frame too well.

Joint ill starts with bacteria entering through the umbilicus. There is usually heat, swelling and sometimes pus in the navel. Left untreated, the infection spreads to the joints. I am not aware of a new born having joint ill right at birth.
(I have cleared up Navel I'll with LA 300.)
So my question to you would be, when do you believe, (based on your last check) was the calf born?
Have you given her more colostrum since the one time on Tues? Or is she nursing now? Is she walking now?

 

[Nesikep]

I have never had (or diagnosed) joint ill, though I have a number of calves with contracted tendons, one is 24 days old and it still shows when he gets tired.

I had my 17 year old cow with arthritis, and I gave her 15cc once a day for 3 days, didn't notice any side effects... There was another powdered drug (not for use in food animals, but used for horses) that I gave her.. just can't think of the name.. she did react to that after a week... They say ulcers and skin rashes, and I was noticing her getting rashes from licking her legs, so I stopped it.

I'd say if the banamine is significantly helping her, keep her on it and watch for changes. What are the listed side effects?

I'd say just keep her well fed, try to get her standing if she isn't, as it's good for the digestion and circulation too... It doesn't sound to me like you're doing anything wrong at this point.

Edit..
Branguscowgirl, Sometimes I like using a 'milder' antibiotic like triveterin on calves.. there's less reaction to it, I've used it for scours and pneumonia, I would venture a guess it could do well for joint ill too?

 

[branguscowgirl]

Nesi once infection hits the joints you have to hit it hard, or the calf will die or be severily crippled with infection that will spread to other organs.
Calves are not born with joint ill, it starts in the navel. So this is what I do not understand from Nichol. Either the calf was born much earlier than when it was found on Tuesday, or it is something else, like contracted tendons........"Joint ill" needs time to have gotten there from a cord infection.

 

[nurseynicole]

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, and I so appreciate your advice! So he is thinking that the calf was born a day before he found it, the membrane that was stuck on her head was dry not wet That previous day he wasn't in the furthest pasture d/t weather but that really is the earliest that he could have been born. The vet said this was joint ill, but I have my doubts too because the cord is dry there is no pus or anything?? I just looked at the umbilicus and there's no pus, doesn't really seem swollen to me either. Maybe about he size of my thumb which does seem a little large but no excessive. So frustrating, I will attempt to post a pic so you guys can see but her knee on the front right and back hocks are HUGE. Her legs are not bent the wrong way or anything like that. She is up walking on them and the front right seems to bother her more as you can see her kind of limp a little. She recv'd 3 doses of colostrum within 16 hours of him finding her. She sucked 2 pints of replacer last night well and seemed to struggle with getting even that down this morning. She had 3 doses of Baytril and I gave her another dose of Banamine today for the swelling, no fever. I am also giving her probios as I figured it couldn't hurt. We have stopped tubing her since she is taking the bottle although not great but she is. Hopefully that will improve as she does. Will her joints go down or will there be scarring in there from the infection forever?? So strange she was born out on green grass not in a pen full of crap, I'm not saying joint ill isn't the problem it's just a little odd to me.... :???:

 

[branguscowgirl]

They can pick up the bacteria anywhere, even on grass. It possibly entered the blood stream from the navel with out settling there first. If she truely has joint I'll, it could be very difficult to cure. It can be so severe that it has to be opened and the joints flushed with antibiotics. A culture and sesitivity of aspirated pus would tell what you are dealling with and what to treat it with, if you want to go to that extreme and expense. But I honestly do not know what your chances are for curing it.........I have never had it that extreme.

Edit- Assumimg that your vet is spot on with the diagnosis.......
If a human has Osteomyolitis, (Infection in the bone or joint) it requires a minimum of 6 weeks if IV antibiotics to clear. And sometimes surgical intervention is needed in addition. Just an example. But again, no personal experience with it in a newborn calf.
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[nurseynicole]

Brangus if I can figure out how to get the pics to post I have them....Very confusing lol!

 

[nurseynicole]

 

[nurseynicole]

 

[randiliana]

They sure don't look very swollen to me. I would hesitate to call it joint ill.

 

[branguscowgirl]

I agree with Randi.....I wonder if she just got stepped on??
One of the determining factors would have been a temp.. Did anyone take a temp. PRIOR to starting the Banamine and antibiotic?
(Would not be accurate now.) Did the vet actually SEE her??
She sure is a cute little thing!

 

[nurseynicole]

So you guys don't think that those legs minus the front left look swollen??? And no I don't think he took a temp and the vet didn't see her. Do you think we have lost our minds :???: She walks very stiff, banamine makes her move easier and she takes her bottle better on the days she has had it. Okay what else do you think then?? :bang:

 

[skeeter swatter]

Don't look very swollen to me in these pics either.
Why get snippy with people trying to help? :???: :bang:

 

[Nesikep]

I think her joints are fine, perhaps she's just a bit heavier boned than others? I must have dozens of calves with joint ill if that one has swollen joints! I've had lots of them (especially bull calves) with joints the size of baseballs and they've all been fine.

Skeeter, I didn't get the feeling nursey was being snippy.

 

[branguscowgirl]

I do think that her right rear looks swollen, but again she could have gotten stepped on.
Does the swelling move to different joints? Or is it always the right? Can you get a temp before you give the Banamine? Can you have the vet see her? I know one thing, if the vet really thinks it is joint Ill, she is going to need something for a lot longer than 3 days!

I don't think you were being "snippy". I think you are just baffled and concerned.

 

[nurseynicole]

Thanks All! Skeeter don't judge me, I was responding to brangus and def not being smart about it. I am feeling a little embarrassed at this point is all and I'm glad most can notice. Anyway, we will absolutely temp her tomorrow, will wait until after the 24hr mark to try to catch some accuracy. I would take her to the vet but to be honest I don't think I would trust what she says. I have yet to have a calf with a problem that she was positive about. Seems like whatever they have will kill them and it just a matter of time, not being a hater just the way it is. Whatever is up with this calf it was in pain and was shaking like a leaf when it would walk that first day and when I went to get some Banamine she chastised me for it saying the calf probably wouldn't make it anyway?? We have to deal with her as she is the only large animal vet around. I am a nurse which helps some and we are trying to learn as much as we can so this forum has been a lifesaver. Everyone has their way but then I can research and decided what works for us. We have decided that we will wait and see, we will continue to use Banamine for a few more days if she seems to need it and continue to work on bottling more effectively, I am also using a bit of Probios every day too. A little bit of money is justifiable with the prices these calves have been running. One thing, I did palpate her umbilicus this afternoon, her cord is nice and dry but when I was feeling up further the "cord" inside was maybe 1-2cm, I have never palp'd a umbilicus because I have never had too. Does this sound like it's the "right size"? Thanks All! Guess we'll just see how this goes....

 

[Nesikep]

You must have the same vet I have... Has rarely helped me diagnose something, yet always charged for the "I don't know" answer.

I've never really palpated the umbilical cord either, but a lump of that size isn't like a calf I'm certain had navel ill, where it was visibly swollen and you could see it from a distance. I do know you'll still feel the blood vessels there.

Good luck with the little one

 

[branguscowgirl]

Nichole, probios is always good especially while on antibiotics.
As for what you are feeling with the "cord" I do not know. When I have seen navel I'll, it is in calves a week or more old, there is visible swelling and some pus. The leather hanging down is thick and heavier. I give LA 200 every 72 hrs. 2-3 times. Usually clears up just fine.
It seems odd to me for joint ill to show up within 48 hrs. Of birth. I would think that it would take more time for it to migrate and settle there.

Maybe one of the vets here will join in. We have at least 3 of them on the boards.

 

[skeeter swatter]

Well let me say I took your comment wrong, and I sincerely apologize.
The only time I've seen something like this was years ago we bought some bred hef, rather thin and rough looking.
A few weeks later they started calving, and several had small and weak calves with swollen joints(soft and puffy)
Called vet and first thing he did was blood test mamas. They came back real strong BVD.
He gave me some meds for calves, can't remember what, but it didn't work anyway, lost all infected calves.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Sometimes hard to read people's emotion in type. Happens to all of us.