$1300! whoa thats a lot of money

[Texan]

This is the real question why do people refuse to really look at the cost of a cow/calf operation?

That's an excellent question, CB. Maybe because it's easier for them to justify doing what they want to do if they're less than honest about the cost? Makes them think they're making money when they're really not?

These people that talk about cow costs without considering equipment costs because it's paid for are going to be in for a big shock when it's time to buy a new tractor. I hope they're putting back some of that money that it's not costing them. LOL

 

[dun]

Maybe they attended the ENRON/MCI school of accounting

dun

 

[Texan]

:lol2: Well, I guess in that case they're putting plenty back for a new tractor, after all.

 

[jersey lilly]

LOL Mr Lilly doesn't do freeby machinest work for others..... The tradin we do is more in the line of helpin out when others work cows, haulin somethin they need hauled.....feedin their cows while they are gone, that kinda thing.
More in the line of favors. So there's no reciepts change hands for favors done between neighbors, and won't ever be. But if you wanna put a dollar amount on friendship and take it off income taxes.....go right ahead. I"m not gonna do that.

 

[Caustic Burno]

LOL Mr Lilly doesn't do freeby machinest work for others..... The tradin we do is more in the line of helpin out when others work cows, haulin somethin they need hauled.....feedin their cows while they are gone, that kinda thing.
More in the line of favors. So there's no reciepts change hands for favors done between neighbors, and won't ever be. But if you wanna put a dollar amount on friendship and take it off income taxes.....go right ahead. I"m not gonna do that.

There is a big difference in doing the neighbor a favor by watching his place or feeding his cows when he is sick and barter work. Barter work has a $$ value you stated about barter work.

 

[norriscathy]

This year I paid more than $130 per cow for hay and feed alone! Guess I really need some help! I was told several months ago that you could really make some good money if you only had 20 cows; but with 200 you would lose your shirt.

Could it be that with 20 cows you ignore expenses and think of every calf sale as pure,100% profit; while with 200 cows expenses become very serious very quickly?

Norris

 

[Workinonit Farm]

This is the real question why do people refuse to really look at the cost of a cow/calf operation?

Quite possibly because they are afraid of what they may find. Or perhaps some don't really know how, as in, factoring in fuel, fence materials for repairs (even if they already have it on hand), tools, etc.

I wish I could keep a cow for $130.00 a year. My average for 2005 was in the $360.00 range. And with the fuel prices on the rise contiuously, I expect my cost per cow to go up as well.

Katherine

 

[Texan]

This year I paid more than $130 per cow for hay and feed alone! Guess I really need some help!

Me and you both, Norris. I spent more money last winter for feed than I ever have and more than I ever imagined I would. Not enough hay and it was sorry. Only hay I could buy was high and sorry. Had to supplement protein just to get them to digest the junk.

You know you're gonna have a bad winter when you go into October with your feed man's phone number programmed on your cell phone speed dial. It gets even worse by December when the no good sob sends you a Christmas card. Trust me--nobody needs to be getting Christmas cards from their feed guy.

 

[Bama]

I take record keeping to an extreme. I was looking for some software for cattle but could not find anything to suit my needs. I did a program in excell that tracked all expense. I not only keep up with expense but also how many days the cow was there that year. For instance if I sell one in Januany she does not get charged with a whole years worth of expenses for that year. She is only charged for the number of days she was there. This makes for some pretty interesting formulars in excell. Take the total years expense in a category and then the total number of cow days that year and the total number of days a perticular cow was on the farm that year. You can figure out exactly how much each cow has in it. All I do is evertime I purchase something I enter it into a perticular sheet in excell. I also have a sheet for each animal. I track all feed, hay, meds, etc.. I have reports generatered that uses the formulars to breakdown how many days to charge to each animal. A .29 cent hairpen gets really spread out. But all the same even if its only a part of a cent it gets split by number of cow days in that year, all automaticly of couse, aint no way I have the time to figure this out by hand. Another interesting thing I do is is if I have something that carries over to the next year it is automaticly figured into that year. Course taxes are figured on a year to year basis. I got to playing around with excell and thought it would not only be neat to have it do all this for me but I would know exactly how much every animal cost me when it comes time to sell her. Linking cows to calves makes some interesting formulars as well. Over a course of a cows lifespan some interesting things happen as well. If a calf is the second calf from a cow the cows expenses are divided by the two calves. If its 10 then they got divided ten ways. It will really show you why you need a cow spitting out calves every year. By doing it this way you can only say how much you have in a calf on any given day. As the calfs momma has more calves her expenses get divided futher. I can look at it both ways. How much a calf has cost me or how much a cow has made me. Like I said I know its extreme but I can tell to the exact tenth of a cent how much I have in any given one. Maybe I should have been a bean counter, but I think a maintenceman fitted my calling better.

 

[Dave]

Gee, all this tractor input and I just bought a new tractor. Trouble was that the old Oliver is running on three cylinders and the pto clutch is out. You know that dang Oliver dealer is never open when I stop by there. I searched for over a year for a decent used tractor. All I could find was worn out junkers like I already have or decent tractor that they wanted $1000 less than new. So I closed my eyes, plugged my nose and dove in. It only hurt for a short time. And I plan on running this until it is as old and worn out as Ollie.
Dave

 

[aplusmnt]

One thing I was pondering on this $130.00 per cow cost. Is it possible to have maybe a year that is that low, but if you look back last year or the year before and showed say $500.00 per cow cost because that year you built new fences, or bought new hay rings, troughs, built a corral etc.

Seems it would be important to depreciate this stuff out in a way that gives a person an accurate year to year cost and profit. I could see some saying dang lost big last year went in whole, but last two years been making a killing. When in reality you made a small profit over the three years if charged off the books properly.

Just a thought! Might explain some people having a low spending per cow on a certain year, they were on a down swing of spending? Years in past and years in future will not be so good.

The figures I would like to know is say a person's ten year average of cow cost. That would be a more accurate figure most likely.

 

[cypressfarms]

One thing I was pondering on this $130.00 per cow cost. Is it possible to have maybe a year that is that low, but if you look back last year or the year before and showed say $500.00 per cow cost because that year you built new fences, or bought new hay rings, troughs, built a corral etc.

Seems it would be important to depreciate this stuff out in a way that gives a person an accurate year to year cost and profit. I could see some saying dang lost big last year went in whole, but last two years been making a killing. When in reality you made a small profit over the three years if charged off the books properly.

Just a thought! Might explain some people having a low spending per cow on a certain year, they were on a down swing of spending? Years in past and years in future will not be so good.

The figures I would like to know is say a person's ten year average of cow cost. That would be a more accurate figure most likely.

Aplus, when doing taxes all cattle bought are depreciated over a certain period of time. H & R Block wanted to depreciate over 7 years for cows and bulls. I had them depeciate for 5 years for cows and 3 years for bulls. Same thing with machinery - depreciated over it's useful life. I bought a Kawasaki mule and it's dep. over 5 years. Tractors, trucks, are the same way. With structures (barns, fences, corrals, etc) the time is normally longer. New fences 10 years, barn 10 years.

This gives you a truer indication of profit/loss, as without some sort of depreciation factored in your profit/loss would be up and down spikes on a chart from year to year.

This does not account for retained heifers (or bulls for that matter). I haven't found a way to depreciate them yet :lol: If you wanted to do it personally, you can add retained cattle to your total.

 

[tom4018]

Even if you buy the cheapest Valley vet has you can't ivomec for less than 3.42 a cow which is virtually worthless when it comes to fly control also.

Curious Caustic,

Which wormer do you use?

 

[jersey lilly]

aplus you could be right, I don't know what the cost per cow was year before last, or the year before that. This is the first year I've been able to stay at home (quite my town job) to full time ranch, gettin really serious about it now that we have as many head as we do. I've always saved all the reciepts, and i could go back and put a figure on the last ten years...heck the last 15 if need be. I can, however guarantee that our cow cost per year has never came close to $500 per cow per year, because both our salaries together have never equalled that amount. That's $50,000 spent on a hundred head...if you spend that much money a year on a cow operation. you need to git outta the cow business.

As for the trade barter, favor whatever you wanna call it.
Say you have item A that's worth 100.00 and you trade for item B that you feel is worth 100.00. You take Item B and make a reciept for that as an expense....do you turn right around and claim Item A as a profit on your income taxes? Probably NOT. You just screwed Uncle Sam. Same goes for the person that recieved your Item A....if he gets a reciept and doesn't claim a profit for the item that he traded....then he too screwed Uncle Sam. In my eyes...if I trade 1 thing for another of what I concider equal value, they cancelled each other out, and I'm out $0 the other person's out $0. Even if that trade includes a skill that you have. When you are trading, bartering,most folks aren't gonna be stupid enuff to trade their skill or whatever that might be worth $15 an hour (4hour = $60) for an item that's not worth that much.
Think however you like. but if your really honest on your taxes.......the trade/barter system cancells itself out and ya don't worry about it.

 

[Texan]

Aplus, when doing taxes all cattle bought are depreciated over a certain period of time. H & R Block wanted to depreciate over 7 years for cows and bulls. I had them depeciate for 5 years for cows and 3 years for bulls. Same thing with machinery - depreciated over it's useful life. I bought a Kawasaki mule and it's dep. over 5 years. Tractors, trucks, are the same way. With structures (barns, fences, corrals, etc) the time is normally longer. New fences 10 years, barn 10 years.

I've always considered tractors and equipment to be either 7 or 10 year property, depending on whether you use GDS or ADS. Breeding stock to be either 5 or 7 year property. I know that Caustic has also talked about depreciating tractors for 5 years and I'm wondering how you guys get by with this.

I'm sure not a CPA and have no accounting training, but I try to wade through the pita of doing my own taxes because I hate for anybody to know my business. I didn't realize there was an election for class life of a property, so I've always used the IRS tables for recovery periods. I'd really like to have the option of depreciating for whatever period of time that I want to, like you guys do. What am I doing wrong?

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p946/13081f32.html

 

[mitchwi]

MACRS - Modified Accelerated Cost Recovery Farms = 150% not 200%

Cattle - Breeding, and Dairy - 5 yrs
Machinery, equipment, grain bins, fencing used in production - 10 yrs
Farm Buildings - Single Purpose 15 yrs
Farm Buildings - 25 yrs

You can use longer lives or use an alternative cost recovery percent, like straight line for example. You cannot use 200% or shorter periods. There are specifics in agricultural class life issued by the IRS.

I should point out these years above are "class life" and associated with class life is depreciable life...
so cattle class life of 5 = depreciable life of 3
machinery, etc, class life 10 = depreciable life of 7 (post 1989)
Single purpose is 15 = depreciable of 10
Building 25 = depreciable of 20

Class life determines depreciable life

 

[redfornow]

aplus you could be right, I don't know what the cost per cow was year before last, or the year before that. This is the first year I've been able to stay at home (quite my town job) to full time ranch, gettin really serious about it now that we have as many head as we do. I've always saved all the reciepts, and i could go back and put a figure on the last ten years...heck the last 15 if need be. I can, however guarantee that our cow cost per year has never came close to $500 per cow per year, because both our salaries together have never equalled that amount. That's $50,000 spent on a hundred head...if you spend that much money a year on a cow operation. you need to git outta the cow business.

As for the trade barter, favor whatever you wanna call it.
Say you have item A that's worth 100.00 and you trade for item B that you feel is worth 100.00. You take Item B and make a reciept for that as an expense....do you turn right around and claim Item A as a profit on your income taxes? Probably NOT. You just screwed Uncle Sam. Same goes for the person that recieved your Item A....if he gets a reciept and doesn't claim a profit for the item that he traded....then he too screwed Uncle Sam. In my eyes...if I trade 1 thing for another of what I concider equal value, they cancelled each other out, and I'm out $0 the other person's out $0. Even if that trade includes a skill that you have. When you are trading, bartering,most folks aren't gonna be stupid enuff to trade their skill or whatever that might be worth $15 an hour (4hour = $60) for an item that's not worth that much.
Think however you like. but if your really honest on your taxes.......the trade/barter system cancells itself out and ya don't worry about it.

Bottom line is you make a living farming. To me you dont have anything to prove.
Good luck hope those costs never get to 500 a cow, but some years it does.

MD

 

[Caustic Burno]

Aplus, when doing taxes all cattle bought are depreciated over a certain period of time. H & R Block wanted to depreciate over 7 years for cows and bulls. I had them depeciate for 5 years for cows and 3 years for bulls. Same thing with machinery - depreciated over it's useful life. I bought a Kawasaki mule and it's dep. over 5 years. Tractors, trucks, are the same way. With structures (barns, fences, corrals, etc) the time is normally longer. New fences 10 years, barn 10 years.

I've always considered tractors and equipment to be either 7 or 10 year property, depending on whether you use GDS or ADS. Breeding stock to be either 5 or 7 year property. I know that Caustic has also talked about depreciating tractors for 5 years and I'm wondering how you guys get by with this.

I'm sure not a CPA and have no accounting training, but I try to wade through the pita of doing my own taxes because I hate for anybody to know my business. I didn't realize there was an election for class life of a property, so I've always used the IRS tables for recovery periods. I'd really like to have the option of depreciating for whatever period of time that I want to, like you guys do. What am I doing wrong?

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p946/13081f32.html

When it comes tax time I walk in the CPA office with the books
and she tells me you want to depreciate this for 5 years and this for 7, and I say yes mam. For what I am paying the lady with the education I don't argue. By the time she gets trough my tax return looks like the condensed version of websters.

 

[Caustic Burno]

aplus you could be right, I don't know what the cost per cow was year before last, or the year before that. This is the first year I've been able to stay at home (quite my town job) to full time ranch, gettin really serious about it now that we have as many head as we do. I've always saved all the reciepts, and i could go back and put a figure on the last ten years...heck the last 15 if need be. I can, however guarantee that our cow cost per year has never came close to $500 per cow per year, because both our salaries together have never equalled that amount. That's $50,000 spent on a hundred head...if you spend that much money a year on a cow operation. you need to git outta the cow business.

As for the trade barter, favor whatever you wanna call it.
Say you have item A that's worth 100.00 and you trade for item B that you feel is worth 100.00. You take Item B and make a reciept for that as an expense....do you turn right around and claim Item A as a profit on your income taxes? Probably NOT. You just screwed Uncle Sam. Same goes for the person that recieved your Item A....if he gets a reciept and doesn't claim a profit for the item that he traded....then he too screwed Uncle Sam. In my eyes...if I trade 1 thing for another of what I concider equal value, they cancelled each other out, and I'm out $0 the other person's out $0. Even if that trade includes a skill that you have. When you are trading, bartering,most folks aren't gonna be stupid enuff to trade their skill or whatever that might be worth $15 an hour (4hour = $60) for an item that's not worth that much.
Think however you like. but if your really honest on your taxes.......the trade/barter system cancells itself out and ya don't worry about it.

If you are really honest on trade barter you have to give a reciept. I wanted a bull calf last year that was valued at 1200 dollars the neighbor wanted a heifer and 20 rolls of hay valued at 20 dollars a roll. We swaped but in his expense reporting on schedule f the hay is under a different category from the heifer purchased. The heifer can be depreciated by him as well as the bull by me.
See it is not the same as it's a business and to be treated as one accurate records must be kept.
He recieved a reciept for a 800 dollar heifer and 400 dollars of hay, I recieved a reciept for a 1200 dollar bull.
Business is Business everthing else is BS.

 

[S.R.R.]

aplus you could be right, I don't know what the cost per cow was year before last, or the year before that. This is the first year I've been able to stay at home (quite my town job) to full time ranch, gettin really serious about it now that we have as many head as we do. I've always saved all the reciepts, and i could go back and put a figure on the last ten years...heck the last 15 if need be. I can, however guarantee that our cow cost per year has never came close to $500 per cow per year, because both our salaries together have never equalled that amount. That's $50,000 spent on a hundred head...if you spend that much money a year on a cow operation. you need to git outta the cow business.

As for the trade barter, favor whatever you wanna call it.
Say you have item A that's worth 100.00 and you trade for item B that you feel is worth 100.00. You take Item B and make a reciept for that as an expense....do you turn right around and claim Item A as a profit on your income taxes? Probably NOT. You just screwed Uncle Sam. Same goes for the person that recieved your Item A....if he gets a reciept and doesn't claim a profit for the item that he traded....then he too screwed Uncle Sam. In my eyes...if I trade 1 thing for another of what I concider equal value, they cancelled each other out, and I'm out $0 the other person's out $0. Even if that trade includes a skill that you have. When you are trading, bartering,most folks aren't gonna be stupid enuff to trade their skill or whatever that might be worth $15 an hour (4hour = $60) for an item that's not worth that much.
Think however you like. but if your really honest on your taxes.......the trade/barter system cancells itself out and ya don't worry about it.

Bottom line is you make a living farming. To me you dont have anything to prove.
Good luck hope those costs never get to 500 a cow, but some years it does.

MD

True enough!


I have a hard time wraping my head around how it is possible but it sounds like you are sure of yourself. So more power to you and the best of luck. :cboy: