$1300! whoa thats a lot of money
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KMacGinley
Well-known member
Dave: last two I sold weighed 1600 lbs and went for 55 cents. I try to put weight on them and sell when the price is high. In the fall you are looking at 40 cents, at least around here, but not in the spring. I thought $700 would be conservative at least for me. If they are open, I throw them in the feedlot with the steers and put em on corn silage. My steers averaged 699 lbs. in 2005 (no creep), so I used a 550 lb. weight to be conservative. We feed ours out for freezer beef and any we don't have buyers for, we have two local butcher shops that buy every steer and heifer that we have ready. Freezer beef goes for $1.00 per lb/ no implants, no antibiotics, no feed additives all "natural" Not grass fed though. So I was guessing on feeder price, that is what my friend got for his. You will have to use your own figures.
As far as cow maintenance costs, I figure everything that it costs to maintain the cow for a year. like what CB said. Feed and all that is not all there is to it. If you don't know where all your costs are, it is pretty hard to reduce them or have any idea whether or not you are making any money.
As far as cow maintenance costs, I figure everything that it costs to maintain the cow for a year. like what CB said. Feed and all that is not all there is to it. If you don't know where all your costs are, it is pretty hard to reduce them or have any idea whether or not you are making any money.
stocky
Well-known member
Dub, I feed hay 3 1/2 months per year and the hay costs me 15 dollars per cow per month. I feed minerals year round which run another 10 per cow and the vet medicine and calls average another 10-15 dollars per cow. The fertilize runs about 20 dollars per cow, this year. I dont owe on my permanent cows, so I am not paying interest on them. I use a Long tractor to do all the feeding and it is paid for and I dont own hay equipment to pay interest on. The cows I buy to resell, I pay 7 dollars per head per month for pasture and when the pasture is gone, I pay 15 dollars per month for hay. I also feed the cows I will sell 15 dollars per month of grain to make them look and milk good. I normally have these cows for 4-6 months. I borrow money to buy these cows, so I have about 20 dollars in interest in them. The cows I buy to resell cost more to keep than the permanent cows I have
stocky":32v1shlg said:
Everything else you listed is about the same as what it costs me...but I can't help but ask what kind of hay you're feeding? :lol: Mine is straight alfalfa, 2nd and 3rd crop, runs me $75-85/ton in small bales. Comes out to about $2.50/bale and I'm feeding a bale per cow per day with minimal waste during the winter (ground completely covered in snow). So 2.50 x 7 gives me a little over $15/hd/wk.
(That probably explains why the only cows I have here are nurse cows, and they have to have four calves each per set during the winter or it's not economically feasible.)
If I could get down to $15/cow/month you bet I'd do it, but I don't see any way to do it. LOL.
milkmaid":149x9svu said:
I'm thinking the cost of hay that Stocky is experiencing has to do with the fact that he is drought conditions. Around here hay usually runs around $70/ton, but we were in a severe drought a year or so ago and hay was running $110/ton and higher if - keyword here being if - you could even find it. Just my thoughts.
stocky
Well-known member
Milkmaid, you need a considerably better hay than I do. The dairy people around here pay 150 per ton for alfalfa and their hay cost per cow is around 3 dollars per day. With your nurse cows, you have to have much more expensive hay than I do. The hay I buy is mainly fescue and orchard grass with clover and also some johnsongrass hay. A good 4x6 bale will feed 30 cows per day, so it is 1 bale per cow per month and at 15 dollars per bale, that is 15 dollars per cow per month.
Our drought drove hay prices up this fall for people who didnt have enough and 30-35 was pretty common. What it will cost this summer all depends on the rain
Our drought drove hay prices up this fall for people who didnt have enough and 30-35 was pretty common. What it will cost this summer all depends on the rain
Dave
Well-known member
KM, I understand how a person could get $700 for a cull cow today but what are prices like in the future. Buying $1600 cows a person is counting on prices holding for a long time. Just three years ago in 2003 fats were in the 60's. Cull cows, even fed up cull cows weren't selling for 55 cents. And of course there is a cost to feed up that cull cow which needs to be added to the cost.
The other two points I would question. One is the calculations call for getting 10 calves out of the cow. Not all cows will do that. Some cows will cull themselves out for various reasons after one calf. Hopefully not many of these $1600 cows will do that but it will happen. Secondly the calculation is the percent of calf crop. the cost of those cows who don't wean a calf needs to be divided amoungest those that do.
How ruthlessly will a person be able to cull a herd of $1600 cows? Will I be able to ship a cow after her first or second calf when I know I am taking a loss in doing it?
Dave
The other two points I would question. One is the calculations call for getting 10 calves out of the cow. Not all cows will do that. Some cows will cull themselves out for various reasons after one calf. Hopefully not many of these $1600 cows will do that but it will happen. Secondly the calculation is the percent of calf crop. the cost of those cows who don't wean a calf needs to be divided amoungest those that do.
How ruthlessly will a person be able to cull a herd of $1600 cows? Will I be able to ship a cow after her first or second calf when I know I am taking a loss in doing it?
Dave
KMacGinley
Well-known member
Oh, I know, that is why I said at least until the price goes down to 60 cents. The premise was why people are paying such big money for cattle. I wrote the justification that they use. All of those points you make are very valid. But these guys aren't thinking about that, they are looking at $200 per head profit and paying whatever it takes to get cows.
All cows will not last 10 years.... True
All cows will not breed each year..... True
Cattle prices might not stay high forever.... True.
The most I have ever paid for a registered Angus Cow was $800. The least was $600.
We had some pretty bad looking cattle when we started with the angus, I only allow the kids to show stuff they raise from a baby at the county fair. We got our heads handed to us for years. We were the only family in the beef barn to never win a class. The kids got discouraged until they got their auction check each year.
So with AI and buying/raising better bulls we bred em up. This year we had the Res grand champion steer and gr ch angus. Never won a thing before. Kids were happy. Cattle are getting better every year. We were patient and bred em up ourselves.
I wouldn't buy a $1600 cow for any reason. But I would sell some for that.
All cows will not last 10 years.... True
All cows will not breed each year..... True
Cattle prices might not stay high forever.... True.
The most I have ever paid for a registered Angus Cow was $800. The least was $600.
We had some pretty bad looking cattle when we started with the angus, I only allow the kids to show stuff they raise from a baby at the county fair. We got our heads handed to us for years. We were the only family in the beef barn to never win a class. The kids got discouraged until they got their auction check each year.
So with AI and buying/raising better bulls we bred em up. This year we had the Res grand champion steer and gr ch angus. Never won a thing before. Kids were happy. Cattle are getting better every year. We were patient and bred em up ourselves.
I wouldn't buy a $1600 cow for any reason. But I would sell some for that.
Dave
Well-known member
KM, I agree with you. I understand their rational, I just don't think it is going to work out to well. This last year I have bought 15 or 20 bred cows or young pairs. The high was $780, the low was $375, the average around $600. The heck with $1600, I will give them a bargain and let the whole herd go for a mere $1200 a head or they can take there pick for $1500.
Dave
Dave
stocky":273ftee0 said:
Thanks Stocky
That is exactly what I was expecting. I roughly added up the expenses and it comes up to about $100 per head.
I hope you didn't find the question to be rude but, I respect your opinion and was glad to hear from you.
I know I'm small time operator, and have an awful lot to learn and will be willing to heed advise from you. I only have 54 mama's but I know I don't spend $20,000 per year to maintain them.
I don't agree with the people that try to scare off someone new in the cattle business with numbers like $400 per cow.
Also, do you know what Caustic was referring to when he said "welfare herd"??????
Have a great one,
Dub
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
If it only takes you a hundred dollars a head your either lieing to yourself, or your the best Cattleman in the country.
You have no hay, med, fuel, tax, insurance, tractor maintainence, plus fence maintainece.
You have no hay, med, fuel, tax, insurance, tractor maintainence, plus fence maintainece.
aplusmnt
Well-known member
DoubleK":3k144dr4 said:
There is lots of discussions on this site about this it would be handy to read. One thing I have learned on here is that there is so many things when factoring in cost of raising a cow.
Feed, medicine and hay are not all there is. Not only should you be factoring in the gas you use in truck to take cattle to market but the wear on the tires on the trailer to get you there. Way more to look at than just hay and mineral.
aplusmnt":muov1sr8 said:
Aplus, thanks and I understand what you are saying. However, the costs you speak of should be applied to the cost of the calf and not the maintenance cost of the cow. It is not a true ROI to apply every expense on the farm and total it and divide that by the number of cows to analyse your profit. Many other things to consider.
Again Aplus, thanks, your posts are always respectful and you never talk down to us beginners.
Every person is entitled to their own opinion, right, wrong, or indifferent and thats why there are so many attorneys, to sort these opinions out. I'm thinking that some of the people on here should be contacting a very good tax attorney.
Dub
KMacGinley
Well-known member
DoubleK":14zax1jz said:
Dub, I don't understand what you mean by the cost of the calf instead of the cost of the cow? The calf is a product of the cow. Until it is weaned, it has no cost, the cow does. Tags, vaccination etc are part of the cow cost. After that calf goes wherever then it gets costs.
Here are some example costs:
Depreciation.... cows, bulls, barns, tractors, trailers, etc. all charged to the cow.
Insurance
Electricity
Fertilizer
Seed
Feed
Stone for feeding areas
minerals
Vet
Semen
Fuel
Fence repair
All these are part of maintaining a cow for a year, you are only kidding yourself if you are not counting these as your expenses charged to the cow.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
DoubleK":h7hyaxqz said:
My sensitive response.
And that ain't the best stockman award, anyone that has ran a Cattle operation would know a calf has no value until sold unless bought and resold. So with your thinking the cow was free to upkeep a year whether she has a calf or not.
stocky
Well-known member
I think any of us are capable of figuring every possible cost in a way that says that there is no way possible have a cow and she ever pay for herself. It is easy to assign costs to cows that you would incur anyway, whether you had the cows or not and say it costs you that for the upkeep of the cow. Many people talk about the costs of fuel to go get feed. There are very few trips to get feed that arent also involved with groceries or other regular life expenses. Alot of the fence costs are the same whether you have 0 animals or 10 or 100. You have to have fences to keep other peoples stock out and to keep people from driving off the road onto your property. If you didnt have the cattle, would you keep the sprouts and weeds out of the pasture? (I think you would) Most of us would go to the cattle auction at times just for enjoyment, even if we didnt take an animal to sell it. How many animals you have also makes a difference. For instance a calf creep feeder has been mentioned. A one-sided 600 lb feeder costs 400 dollars. It will last 15 years. If I have 20 calves use that feeder each year for 15 years, it costs 1 dollar and 33 cents per calf. If I have 1 calf per year, it costs 26 dollars and 67 cents per calf. In theory, the more animals you can run through your operation per year, the less per animal it takes for expenses. However, in reality, we all know it doesnt always work that way and it isnt very often the most profitable. I know we can take every thing we spend during the year and divide it up among how many cows we own and come up with a dollar figure----I just dont know that it is entirely accurate to assign all that to the cows.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
It is if your operating a business versus a hobby. You think Walmart doesn't pass every cost to the consumer even on the return policy.
Yes fence cost is the same for 10 cows as 100 if you fence off enough to sustain a 100. You can put your land to work for a lot cheaper cost per year growing timber with a lot slower returns also.
It is not about staring at a pretty pasture its about return on Capital Employed . If you are not counting every penny that goes into keeping Old Belle you have a hobby which is ok, also you shouldn't be filing a schedule F.
Yes fence cost is the same for 10 cows as 100 if you fence off enough to sustain a 100. You can put your land to work for a lot cheaper cost per year growing timber with a lot slower returns also.
It is not about staring at a pretty pasture its about return on Capital Employed . If you are not counting every penny that goes into keeping Old Belle you have a hobby which is ok, also you shouldn't be filing a schedule F.
CB,
I agree with you, But I bet the CEO of walmart doesnt go to the grocery section an get a freezer full of top choice CAB certified meat and take it home. lol
I can tell you on my little place we eat some of our profits. literally. :roll:
There are pros and cons of how you should run the costs, but if you get a figure less than 300 bucks per cow you are kidding yourself. Takes at least that in the good and twice that in the bad.
Now I am off to the freezer to get me some of that FREE meat.
MD
I agree with you, But I bet the CEO of walmart doesnt go to the grocery section an get a freezer full of top choice CAB certified meat and take it home. lol
I can tell you on my little place we eat some of our profits. literally. :roll:
There are pros and cons of how you should run the costs, but if you get a figure less than 300 bucks per cow you are kidding yourself. Takes at least that in the good and twice that in the bad.
Now I am off to the freezer to get me some of that FREE meat.
MD
Part of the downside to high priced cows today is that you'll be selling calves into a declining market. Might not be bad in 06, but 07 will really start to separate the wheat from the chaff dollar wise.
dun
dun
