Would you Use a bull that required assistance from a heifer

[Ky hills]

This is a off the wall question that came to mind the other day in regard to another post and some back story relating to it.
Would/should a bull calf that had to be pulled from a heifer be left as a bull and marketed as a breeding animal. I have an opinion on that right or wrong, just wanting to see what others think. I have heard some folks over the years justify a lot of things because it's a registered animal, or from good stock etc.

 

[Stickney94]

This is one of those topics with strong opinions. So, if the same heifer calved a bull naturally the next year from the same sire -- should that calf be marketed?

I've come to the conclusion that calving ease, birth weights, pelvic size, cow family history all are parts of a rather complicated formula that goes into calving success.

 

[Nesikep]

It's always hard to say, because the animal starts with a pretty blank slate... you can look at the family history on both sides and get some clues.

I kept the heifer from a heifer last year that was a really hard pull, big calf and small cow, but she did an outstanding job of raising it.. Daughter looks like she'll grow to be a little bigger than her momma frame-wise.. I found that family tends to gestate longer than most (290-295 days), so going forward I'll try and mate them to bulls with a shorter gestation and the BW should fall in line. This year the same cow had an even bigger bull calf (120lbs?), she's not a lot bigger than last year, but it was an easier birth (still assisted).. he's getting steered though.
Here's the family, calf is an hour old and had already nursed


I've kept very heavy bull calves that required no assistance and didn't have any more trouble with them...
After all, you mileage may vary, it's your herd, as long as your marketing is honest it's on the buyer to make informed decisions on their herd

 

[Katpau]

I would steer any bull calf that had to be pulled, and I would make a note of that heifer and not keep any future sons or daughters of her as breeding animals. My herd is Angus, and normally having to assist is an extremely rare occurrence, so I don't need to keep anything that has given me issues. I would keep the heifer, and if there were no future problems she would remain in the herd until she was open or gave me another reason to cull her. All of her calves would be sold with the rest of the commercial herd.

 

[76 Bar]

Would/should a bull calf that had to be pulled from a heifer be left as a bull and marketed as a breeding animal.

No.

 

[Silver]

Would/should a bull calf that had to be pulled from a heifer be left as a bull and marketed as a breeding animal.

The fact that it was pulled would have less than zero bearing on my decision to keep or use that bull. Lots of other more important things to think about imho

 

[Buck Randall]

Automatically castrating every calf that has to be pulled is overkill. If the calf needs to be assisted because he wasn't positioned properly in the uterus, that's not heritable. If the heifer didn't grow well because she wasn't fed properly, that's not heritable. If the calf has dynamite carcass qualities and will be used as a terminal sire on mature cows, who cares if he's not calving ease?

 

[TCRanch]

My first reaction would be a solid NO. But there are some cows - and heifers - that just put everything into the calf they're carrying and end up with a whopper, regardless of pelvic measurements, EPD's/CED bull, good condition/not over-feeding, etc. Assuming your heifers have the same sire, I would compare that bull calf to any others and look closely at the heifers lineage. Was he an anomaly?

 

[Ebenezer]

I would not sell him as a calving ease bull. Otherwise, you could be the problem and fed the heifer too much.

 

[SBMF 2015]

A very prominent Hereford breeder in our area castrates any calf born weighing over 100lbs. Regardless of whether it's out of a cow or hfr. They just don't believe they want to pass on potential problems.

I like big calves. But I'm smart enough to use calving ease bulls on heifers. So I don't save any replacements out of hfrs.

 

[gcreekrch]

I think many bulls are marketed and sold with little things like whether they were pulled or held up to their swing bag, bad footed mother not necessarily mentioned to the buyer.

 

[76 Bar]

Psssst...not to mention irregular calvers and high headed man eaters. ;-)

 

[gcreekrch]

Psssst...not to mention irregular calvers and high headed man eaters. ;-)

Gotta love them programs that roll from spring to fall and back again because the are "such a good cow".

 

[W.B.]

It's always hard to say, because the animal starts with a pretty blank slate... you can look at the family history on both sides and get some clues.

I kept the heifer from a heifer last year that was a really hard pull, big calf and small cow, but she did an outstanding job of raising it.. Daughter looks like she'll grow to be a little bigger than her momma frame-wise.. I found that family tends to gestate longer than most (290-295 days), so going forward I'll try and mate them to bulls with a shorter gestation and the BW should fall in line. This year the same cow had an even bigger bull calf (120lbs?), she's not a lot bigger than last year, but it was an easier birth (still assisted).. he's getting steered though.
Here's the family, calf is an hour old and had already nursed


I've kept very heavy bull calves that required no assistance and didn't have any more trouble with them...
After all, you mileage may vary, it's your herd, as long as your marketing is honest it's on the buyer to make informed decisions on their herd

Wow, I didn't know cattle could gestate that long. 280 pretty well catches everything here on the high end. Calving ease bulls start calving 270 days.

 

[76 Bar]

Gotta love them programs that roll from spring to fall and back again because the are "such a good cow".

Indeed. I learned years ago pardon the pun, to steer clear of programs that had dual calving seasons.
A gentle reminder Ky Hills stated in his OP

Would/should a bull calf that had to be pulled from a heifer be left as a bull and marketed as a breeding animal.

. Some of the responses have gravitated to opinions of birth Wt per se and ignored the primary query of marketing a bull calf who required assistance from a 1st CH dam. Apples & Oranges.

 

[Nesikep]

Wow, I didn't know cattle could gestate that long. 280 pretty well catches everything here on the high end. Calving ease bulls start calving 270 days.

I've seen as long as 302 I think... really depends on the breed, the continentals tend to gestate longer, I think Jerseys gestate the shortest

I like playing with data!



I would keep a bull from a cow that needed assistance for her first calf, but BW does come into it.. did she need help birthing a calf that was normally sized and built? if so, probably not as it would indicate poor pelvic structure/size... Is she an exceptionally small cow?
On the cow I posted above, the reason I wouldn't keep a bull from her is because she seems to gestate them too long, If I find she gestates much shorter bred to a different bull (Our Limo calves came about 5 days earlier, and those replacements gestate less time as well) perhaps I'd consider it.. I'm sure she'd have an ordinary sized calf just fall out of her.
I'll get back to you next year on how her daughter does, she's bound to be a bigger framed girl, and she'll be bred to a bull that comes from a known calving ease line (and he was from a first calf heifer)

 

[W.B.]

Everyone calves heifers a little differently. I have had heifers calf unassisted that should have been helped. Conversely I have intervened when I shouldn't have. Blanket statements are not reality.

 

[Katpau]

Everyone calves heifers a little differently. I have had heifers calf unassisted that should have been helped. Conversely I have intervened when I shouldn't have. Blanket statements are not reality.

Good point. I seldom see my heifers calve. If there's a live calf on them when I go down to check, I assume everything went well. When I do see them calving, it always stresses me out. I become convinced they're in trouble and it is taking too long, and my husband has to bring me back to reality by pointing out it has only been 15 minutes, not the hour it seemed like.

I know some cows can hold them in for hours, if they know you are watching. I've seem it happen too many times. They see me watching and they will just stand there looking back at me, or head for the nearest cover where I can't see them. Give them a half hour alone, and usually you'll come back to a new calf. I assume a watched heifer is no different. I know many people need to pen up the calving cows, because of weather. I would expect that would greatly increase the number of assists, because the cow is not comfortable in that situation, and the guy watching gets worried and impatient and decides to assist rather than gamble on a normal delivery.

 

[Redgully]

On some farms cows are in the sticks and calving is hardly ever observed. My dad had a cow and the feet were out, she was in a paddock that was inaccessible by vehicle. He said she was like that for two days before calving and the calf was alive. I told him that's impossible and he said the vet told him that too but here she was. I had a cow push a calf out and the calfs head was tucked under her front leg, vet told me she can't deliver a calf presented like that but it was right in front of me. I look more at calf shape, shoulder and head size. If i find a line of consistent calving problems that is concerning, a one off doesn't concern me much.

 

[gcreekrch]

Gotta love them programs that roll from spring to fall and back again because the are "such a good cow".

Indeed. I learned years ago pardon the pun, to steer clear of programs that had dual calving seasons.
A gentle reminder Ky Hills stated in his OP

Would/should a bull calf that had to be pulled from a heifer be left as a bull and marketed as a breeding animal.

. Some of the responses have gravitated to opinions of birth Wt per se and ignored the primary query of marketing a bull calf who required assistance from a 1st CH dam. Apples & Oranges.

We can address that then...… Since most do breed heifers to a calving ease bull and many breeders market these light BW calves as "heifer bulls" then no, I would not want to court disaster and extra work by knowingly buying a "heavy BW; heifer bull" or one that was not built right for the job.