True Grit Farms
Well-known member
I wouldn't buy him, EPD'S and DNA is becoming a bigger deal everyday. There's no cheating DNA. Just cause someone writes a few weights down doesn't mean anything to me.
Would you buy this bull?
- Thread starter WalnutCrest
- Start date
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Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Grit that's all epd's is just numbers someone wrote down that never seen the cow in person.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
Red Bull Breeder said:
A non bias person, like a computer. Do you agree that, the more DNA that's available the better and more accurate the projected EPD'S will be?
JMJ Farms
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure that this is not an actual bull. It's a hypothetical question assuming you are standing at the breeders farm looking to buy a bull. He's a breed that you're interested in or else you wouldn't be looking at him to begin with. Assuming you like everything else about the bull, what's more important.... long term, real life results? Or projected results like EPDs, DNA, etc? I THINK, that's the question.
Coosh71
Well-known member
I believe EPDs have there place in most operations. But, I draw the line with $15k bulls that ALOT of the time severely underperform and make a flat out lie of their EPDs. Again EPDs are a good guess. Not fact period stop the presses. This is just my take on it. We do not run Registered Bulls. However we do buy some bulls from a Vet, who buys semen and yearling bulls from a Registered well known breeder. The difference for me is about $6k. Commercial guys IMO, can't make numbers add up while spending $10k+++ on one bull. We also have purchased a 4 yr old bull with no EPDs, but with a long track record of performance. We have seen many of his heifers and steer, and they were what we wanted. Commercial operations, at times get too pressured to fork over the big bucks for a prime bull when it may not matter. A lot of commercial guys around here sell right off the cow. So does it really matter who daddy is? Sale barn doesn't ask... So before the gates of hell open on me for the post read it again. Not saying there's. Not a situation where EPDs aren't important. Just not EVERY situation.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
Around here you can buy a good young registered and HD50K tested bull for $2k to $3k, I see no downsides. All I want and expect is 450lb to 600lb calf to sell in 240 days. There's not a bull out there that's going to match up good with every cow.Coosh71 said:
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
True Grit Farms said:
Who reports the numbers turned in that the non bias person who feeds the information in the computer program that spits out those epd's Grit? DNA results fed in to inaccurate epd's just give more bad numbers. EPD'S are only as good as the the person providing the information for them.
I expect in the less popular breeds errors in reporting could potentially skew the results. Simply not enough empirical data to rely on.
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
TennesseeTuxedo said:
If you've ever seen an Angus bull's EPD's move after his first couple of calf crops hit the ground, then you know your comment applies to more than just bulls from less popular breeds.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Smaller breeder have less opportunity to manipulate the numbers. Not to had for a larger producer to set up contemporary groups to move the numbers on some calves.
Silver
Well-known member
WalnutCrest said:
First off I do not believer that there is an argument for not doing parasite control. Period. Not even going to entertain the argument.
Secondly, my point is that I would not buy a bull from an operation who obviously has completely different operational philosophy than I do. We could argue about chasing extreme calving ease and such, but I'm not interested in that argument either. I know what I want and obviously this guy isn't breeding or managing for it.
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
JMJ Farms said:
Whether or not this bull were standing on my farm (or your farm) ... and was an Angus bull or Shorthorn or Aubrac ... misses the point.
EPD's jump around ... in part because too many people don't tell the truth (my friend has a hot-shot young bull and I'll use some semen, under report BW by 3-5 lbs and over report weaning weights by 5-10 lbs to help him out (or the flip side of reporting pulls that didn't happen, high BW (that didn't happen), low weaning weight (that either didn't happen or was a result of weaning early, etc.)) -- under the umbrella of "who'll ever know" about me helping / hurting people I want to help / hurt) ... and in part because the management practices vary so greatly (some places that creep and others that don't, etc.) ... and in part because the environment varies so greatly (do you really think the performance of a herd in the Arizona desert equates to the performance of a herd in Ohio?) ... and in part because the science is still emerging (see the Gelbvieh breeders who freaked out a few years ago when some new tenderness markers were discovered, invalidating years of prior work by Gelbvieh breeders as bulls with high tenderness scores all of a sudden had horrible scores).
If we have a bull who has this sort of track record from up in the original post, and the bull's breeder / owner is considering having him collected, would you want to sign up for some semen based on the information presented?
Our goal as ranchers should be to maximize our profits per acre, not per head. Managing for profits per head are really (!) hurting our bottom lines.
Our path to do this is to observe nature and to find out what is working on our place and under our management, and hit the gas pedal hard once we find it. The simplest way to do this is to remove crutches and to see who performs -- because if they perform w/o crutches, they will perform with them also (but, you'll be poorer). This is not an advertisement for poor husbandry -- if an animal is sick, treat it. If it's hurt, care for it. Etc.
WalnutCrest said:
You just made my point. More data sharpens the results.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
If they are so accurate why do they need updated weekly?
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
Red Bull Breeder said:
As the DNA bank grows so does the accuracy? EPD's are one thing and DNA is another. From what I've seen flush mates can have very different DNA. So wouldn't that a good thing to know? I honestly don't think there's a big conspiracy happening in the Angus, Simmental and Hereford DNA testing data. Either you lead or get the heck out of the way.
southernultrablack
Well-known member
Allenw said:
It is good real world info, but how do you know it's true? For the record, I don't think WalnutCrest is providing false info. I'm just saying how would you know it was true? How would you know those offspring that you are being shown are really his? Without parentage testing you don't really know, and if someone could provide false weaning and calving data for EPD's they could sure do it in this scenario also.
southernultrablack said:
With a large data base those providing misleading information become outliers.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Those less popular breeds you mentioned have the largest data base in the world TT. Check out International Genetic Solutions.
Which breed did I mention?
