When is best time to Wean?

[Brandonm22]

The average cow herd in Alabama is only 23 cows. I don't see why somebody with less than 50 cows can't record every birth date in a notebook they keep on the truck dash......but then again,I never could understand why most of them don't tag, vaccinate, deworm, and castrate either!

 

[Brandonm22]

I don't mean to be too disagreeable; but around here it is the big guys with 300++ cows that seem to do the best job of keeping the breeding/calving season short, getting their calves dewormed, ided, and castrated. Most of them are either full timers or they have a hired full time manager or herdsman they ride hard. It is that guy with the 15 cows behind his house that calls you to catch them for him when he wants to sell some that has the horns, the nuts, the year round calving season, the psychotic cow, 50 year old handling facilities, and no earthly idea how old any of his calves are.

 

[dun]

backhoeboogie
Re:

Surely it helps to know exact DOBs if all your cows are in one place.

You would think so. But I have tried it with herds of 50 or less and never really found a use or need for it.
Seriously now.
Can you tell me why I would need the exact DOB in a commercial operation?
Exactly what would I use it for?
SL

Certification for selling in the value added sales for one thing. Knowing how good your managment of your cows and calving season for another.

 

[backhoeboogie]

backhoeboogie
Re:

Surely it helps to know exact DOBs if all your cows are in one place.

You would think so. But I have tried it with herds of 50 or less and never really found a use or need for it.
Seriously now.
Can you tell me why I would need the exact DOB in a commercial operation?
Exactly what would I use it for?
SL

Certification for selling in the value added sales for one thing. Knowing how good your managment of your cows and calving season for another.

You're just going to get some SWAGs Dun. Some of these folks have to many cows in to many places to know precisely. Even if the spend all morning on a place, a calf could come that afternoon. The cow probably hides it in the brush too. The owner probably looks at the naval and gives it his best guess.

 

[hillsdown]

backhoeboogie
Re:

Surely it helps to know exact DOBs if all your cows are in one place.

You would think so. But I have tried it with herds of 50 or less and never really found a use or need for it.
Seriously now.
Can you tell me why I would need the exact DOB in a commercial operation?
Exactly what would I use it for?[/b]SL

Certification for selling in the value added sales for one thing. Knowing how good your managment of your cows and calving season for another.

If you are a commercial producer or seed stock producer in Canada and do not have records of date of birth and tagged and recorded to coincide with dam and sire you would be up sh@t creek... It's a little thing called mandatory age verification..

Makes me wonder just what the h@ll kind of trace back system you all have in the states ,and you wonder why government interferes in the ag business so much... :roll:

 

[Cowdirt]

This discussion is going nowhere. The more each farmer/rancher/hobbist, whatever, knows about HIS herd and I'm talking about factual data; the better off he/she is. It's a waste of time and resources to gather data and not use it. JMHO

 

[hillsdown]

If you are a seed stock producer and your calf could have multiple sires in consideration, you or your buyer of the calf will DNA if it is used for breeding in a registered capacity. If it goes to slaughter than you just keep all the records yourself as to bull exposure and have them accessible if needed. As far as commercial a list of all bulls the cow was exposed to must be recorded as well as RFID tags etc. of said bulls..That way if you need to trace back you have all records at your finger tips.It just makes life easier to have meticulous records for the producer and the consumer..My beef herd may be small compared to guys running 4000head but I ran a dairy for many years and having a 100% PB registered Holstein milking herd required many many records and info. It was not hard to do if you keep everything up to date and with the new herd computer programs they have available now I know many huge beef operations where the herdsmen bring their lap tops out with them to the pasture everyday and record all new calf data daily ,as well as health info..It can be done , right now your government is giving you an option to keep records but in a very short time it will be mandatory and if you want to continue in this business you will have to comply. Especially if you want to continue to export in a global capacity.

 

[backhoeboogie]

If you are a seed stock producer and your calf could have multiple sires in consideration, you or your buyer of the calf will DNA if it is used for breeding in a registered capacity. If it goes to slaughter than you just keep all the records yourself as to bull exposure and have them accessible if needed. As far as commercial a list of all bulls the cow was exposed to must be recorded as well as RFID tags etc. of said bulls..That way if you need to trace back you have all records at your finger tips.It just makes life easier to have meticulous records for the producer and the consumer..My beef herd may be small compared to guys running 4000head but I ran a dairy for many years and having a 100% PB registered Holstein milking herd required many many records and info. It was not hard to do if you keep everything up to date and with the new herd computer programs they have available now I know many huge beef operations where the herdsmen bring their lap tops out with them to the pasture everyday and record all new calf data daily ,as well as health info..It can be done , right now your government is giving you an option to keep records but in a very short time it will be mandatory and if you want to continue in this business you will have to comply. Especially if you want to continue to export in a global capacity.

My neighbor adjoining me on the north side, west end of it, is on his second angus bull. Both of them like my pasture better than his. The whole area is sick of that angus bull and none of us want that bloodline. That bull he has now will circle the propery and go through two neighbor's pastures to access mine. He will jump cattle guards and jump cow panel. It is on video.

So how in the heck can anyone claim who is sire to what?

 

[bigbull338]

boogie thats always been a prob with angus bulls even 35yrs ago,them jokers dont like staying put.

 

[Brandonm22]

If you are a commercial producer or seed stock producer in Canada and do not have records of date of birth and tagged and recorded to coincide with dam and sire you would be up sh@t creek... It's a little thing called mandatory age verification..

Makes me wonder just what the h@ll kind of trace back system you all have in the states ,and you wonder why government interferes in the ag business so much... :roll:

Trace back system??? There ain't no trace back system here. A vet correctly identified a commercial Santa Gertrudis cow with BSE ~ a 100 miles from me. They could trace her back to the stockyard where the owner bought her but beyond that........nothing. Who bred her? Was she an Alabama bred cow? Does she have any sibs out there? To this day nobody knows anything and a lot of effort was spent trying to find out. I don't think they even know who sold her at the yard. Most yards would just identify them as "red cow" and slap a sticker on her back with a 3 digit number so the check goes to the right place. If he buys and sells a lot of cows and can't remember the date he bought her that is it for the trace back.

 

[backhoeboogie]

And thankfully Brandom I can still go down and buy heavy breds at auction if I so choose.

Back to the original post - An almanac is your friend. There are way more issues covered in one besides weaning.

 

[Brandonm22]

According to the USDA's best guess, the Alabama cow is an atypical example of BSE that PROBABLY is not related to feeding animal protein.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi ... ne.0002912

 

[Keren]

some Commercial producer's calving season can be as long as 6 months. As mine is this year.
SL

:lol2:

You need to adress both the reproductive efficiency of your females, and your reproductive management.

The BEST commercial breeders will have a 6 week calving period at maximum ... later joiners are culled. Bulls are only run for 6 weeks maximum, some run for less than that. Any female who doesnt join in this time is sub-fertile and culled.

There is a reason they do it this way ... because it is THE MOST PROFITABLE system, they get the best returns for it ... and since you claim to be all about commercial cattle farming and PROFIT, perhaps you should consider this ...

 

[KNERSIE]

There is a reason they do it this way ... because it is THE MOST PROFITABLE system, they get the best returns for it ... and since you claim to be all about commercial cattle farming and PROFIT, perhaps you should consider this ...

There are situations where leaving the bull in year round is more profitable, but that is typically after all the hard work has been done identifying the most fertile lines and culling the less fertile lines and by knowledgeable cattlemen who can manage such a system. Very few environments can support such a system and its usually limited to very temperate climates and irrigated pastures. It simply cannot work for me, but I have seen it work very well.

 

[Keren]

There is a reason they do it this way ... because it is THE MOST PROFITABLE system, they get the best returns for it ... and since you claim to be all about commercial cattle farming and PROFIT, perhaps you should consider this ...

There are situations where leaving the bull in year round is more profitable, but that is typically after all the hard work has been done identifying the most fertile lines and culling the less fertile lines and by knowledgeable cattlemen who can manage such a system. Very few environments can support such a system and its usually limited to very temperate climates and irrigated pastures. It simply cannot work for me, but I have seen it work very well.

Yep, I agree, I know there is no farming system that is one size fits all, but from what I have heard of SL's production system, it doesnt satisfy the criteria of:

identifying the most fertile lines and culling the less fertile lines and by knowledgeable cattlemen who can manage such a system

for example, if you dont have calving dates (DOB of calves) how exactly do you know the calving interval of your cows, and thus you cant cull the less fertile females ...

 

[Brandonm22]

for example, if you dont have calving dates (DOB of calves) how exactly do you know the calving interval of your cows, and thus you cant cull the less fertile females ...

Exactly, you also can't tell which cows are working for you and which aren't. Without rough date of birth data in a calving year round system in a 100 cow herd a cow could calve every 16 months and wean a 380 pound calf and she probably never gets identified as a money loser. He doesn't know how old the calves are he just sells what looks big enough 3 or 4 times a year when he needs money. He probably has no idea which calves he sold went with which cow much less how old any of them are to calculate a 205 day weight. That dink calf could still by nursing at 11-12 months old when it is finally sold weighing 560 pounds and the guy THINKS he is selling a good feeder calf and that black cow over there did a good job.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Without rough date of birth data in a calving year round system in a 100 cow herd a cow could calve every 16 months and wean a 380 pound calf and she probably never gets identified as a money loser.

Rough dates are not a problem. Exacting dates is what would result in a WAG at times. Especially when the cow hides one off in the brush.

In December some steers were hauled to the pasture at the house and some heifers returned to the pasture. In that three hour period I was gone, a cow had calved and I mistook that calf as another cow's because it was so dark. If I had not happened to have returned that ngiht, I would have thought the calf came on the following day. The cow calved 10 months and 3 weeks since her last calving.

Several calve on 11 months intervals. If the bull is not left with the cows full time, that neighbor's angus bull discussed earlier would be breeding them.

If you only have one pasture and one group of cows, exact dates would be much easier to discern.

If you bring them all to a feed lot to work them, you can get a good count. If I sent three of ya'll out right now to count cows on the river side, I'd get three different answers. Some are going to be on the lower flood plain and others will be on the upper flood plain. Some will be in the brush in between or else laid up in the brush on the hill. When they are moved to the pastures across the road, accurate counts will be much simpler.

If #133 calves the first week of March, and she calves the follow year on mid February, you are under that 16 months you are discussing.

I have not lost a calf since the fall calving started in September. I can tell you the calving dates on each cow within two days. Most I can tell the exact day, but there is no point in telling a lie when it comes to exact calving dates. I cannot be in every pasture at once, there is fence to build, hay to put up, fertilizer to spread, pastures to mow etc.

I am only spread out 20 miles but there are folks with many more head than me and spread much further. They are highly successful and I consider them very good managers.

 

[Brandonm22]

That's not what I said. In a year round calving system (or anything close to it) you need to have the cows somehow ID-ed and as I said a rough calving date (+ or - 12 days) or you can not make informed management decisions. I assure that some guy with 15 cows can be just as clueless in this as some dude who inherited a 1000.

 

[gregrio]

I only have a small group, so things are easier for me. I turn my bulls in for 90 days, then take them out all the calves are born within 60 days. i wean and haul to the sale when the last born are 6 to 6.5 months old. I use the almaniac and sale dates to determine the exact day. I wean mine by hauling them to the sale. When keeping some heifers I'll leave them on until 8 to 8.5 months, then wean them in a pen. This method works well for me and it makes it easy to see which cows need cullin.