When is a weaning weight

[plumber_greg]

Weaned calves yesterday. Friend came by, asked what I thought they would weigh? Told him now about 450 to 500, would wean in the 6 range on the steers. He said, "I thought you were weaning them now?"
Got us to talking, when do you weigh your calves for their weaning weight? I consider my weaning weight the weight they are AFTER they have been worked, preconditioned for 30-60 days, hauled 40 miles on a trailer and then stand around all night waiting to be sold the next day.

To calmly bring a cow and a calf up from the pasture and weigh the calf really tells me nothing. I want to know the weight the calves are when they are sold. A calf still on the cow, weighed and then sent to the sale barn seneranio , will lose 75 or more pounds before it sells. Doesn't make those 600lb weaning weights mean much does it?

Had another friend tell me one time that preconditioning doesn't pay. He sorted out his calves, weighed them on the farm, then kept track of every penny he spent preconditioning them for 45 days. THEN they went to the sale barn to be weighed the next day, and he said they only gained 30 lbs, no way was he doing that again, he lost money. That was a few years ago and he still weans on the trailer.

When do you guys with the big weaning weights weigh them and adjust for the 205 day weight? Do you base your decisions on a weight of a full calf, just off the pasture? Or does the thing that matters most is the pay weight, and you make culling decisions off that?

Remember your calving ease bulls calves grow more and faster the longer you keep them. Just look at the difference at 250lb on those calves and what they weigh a month later. Thanks for reading gs

 

[dun]

We take our weaning weights at weaning, i.e. the day they come off the cow. We weigh again 2-3 weeks later when we give boosters. Since we fenceline wean our weights at that time are heavier then the weaning weight. Usually runs around 45-60 pounds depending on the individual calf.

 

[WalnutCrest]

A calf loses 12.5% of its weight if weaned on the trailer?

 

[BC]

Weaning weights are taken when the calves are removed from the cow. It is used as a measurement tool to see what kind of job the cow is doing raising her calf. Taking the post weaning weights can be useful, but don't show the ability of the cow and can be skewed by the calf's ability to convert feed.

 

[plumber_greg]

Walnutcrest, no that is probably too much, but the weights may surprise you. Be an interesting experiment sometime. Haul them 40 miles and I would think 10% isn't out of line.
BC, how can post weaning weights not show the ability of the cow? Milk grass etc., is feed. A lot of people creep feed a while before weaning. Do you think, I think I have heard it called compsenatry gain (?), works the same in the calf ability to convert feed?
I don't really know if that works that way, cuz' then all calves would end up weighing the same. I can see where it's showing the ability of the cow to milk, but if the cow is not milking, the calf isn't gonna' gain to make up the difference when it's weaned.
Dun, them is good calves. I don't fenceline wean, and have never weighed mine in that timeframe to see what they did.
Don't think any way is wrong, just wondering if maybe I oughta' be doin' something different.
Thanks for the replies. gs

 

[cmf1]

I think the formula when WW is used as a standard for comparison you take weight, divide by days old, multiply that times 205, and that would be the standardized or adjusted WW.
So that when different herds or animals are weaned at different times it gives you a baseline for comparison.
Somebody who does breedplan, or epd reporting could probably correct me or explain it better.
Weaning wt. on calves weaned at 300 days are going to be a lot more impressive than calves weaned at 180 days without some kind of mathematical explanation or standard.

I think.

 

[randiliana]

We weigh our calves around 1-3 weeks before we wean and sell them, generally. I convert that to ADG and that tells me what cows are doing what. As far as what the calves lose if you wean them on the truck, here's what the sale barns around here use, in general for shrink. Most calf sales in this country are presorted sales where calves are brought in and weighed 1-2 days before the sale. They will stand around anywhere from 1-4 hours (depends on how busy the sorting day is) and then be run over the scale, sorted on sex, colour, weight, and quality (also on blemishes, frozen ears, etc) and then be penned on hay and water, with other calves similar to themselves. Or, if a producer has a large number of similar type calves they will be penned seperately. They are sold with a standard 'pencil' shrink OR overnight stand (the 'pencil' shrink is considered to be an average of what an overnight stand would be). Anyways, a pencil shrink is related to the distance (and time) the calves travel to get to the auction mart.
0 to 25 Miles - 3.50%
26 to 35 Miles - 3.25%
36 to 45 Miles - 3.00%
46 to 60 Miles - 2.75%
61 to 75 Miles - 2.50%
76 to 90 Miles - 2.25%
91 to 100 Miles - 2.00%
101 to 125 Miles - 1.50%
126 to 150 Miles - 1.00%
151 to 175 Miles - 0.50%
176 + Miles - 0%

Some auction barns still use the 3,2,1,0 scale as well.

 

[Jessica06]

Weaning weights are taken when the calves are removed from the cow. It is used as a measurement tool to see what kind of job the cow is doing raising her calf. Taking the post weaning weights can be useful, but don't show the ability of the cow and can be skewed by the calf's ability to convert feed.

I second this. I'll also add that I don't really give 205 day weights much thought in a commercial operation. You don't get paid for their 205 day weight. You get paid for their actual weight. Your best cows should be bringing in the heaviest calves, which typically means they are calving early AND milking good. Furthermore, if someone bases their cow culling decisions on weaning weights, any weight taken at any other time than right off the cow is, impo, unfair to the cow.

We sort calves off and then weigh them immediately and individually. Any weight gains or losses after that are attributed to management and the sires' genetics.

 

[cbcr]

Even in a commercial operation the reason to adjust the weaning weight to 205 days is so that everything can be compared equally. The correct formula for an adjusted 205 day weaning weight is the calfs weight minus the birth weight, then divide that amount by the number of days old he is, then multiply that number by 205 and add back in the birth weight. if you don't have a birth weight then you can use either 75 or 80 lbs as the birth weight.

So if a calf is 180 days old and weighed 480 lbs. you don't have a birth weight. So use 75 lbs.

480 - 75 = 405
405 lbs. divided by 180 days = 2.25 lbs. per day
2.25 lbs. x 205 days = 461.25 lbs.
461 lbs + 75 lb. birth weight = 536 lb. adjusted weaning weight.

now if a calf is 230 days old and weighed 620 lbs.

620 - 75 = 545
545 divided by 230 = 2.37
2.37 x 205 = 485.85
486 + 75 = 561

If you want to go further, then you can also give the calf additional adjustment for the age of the dam. For example, on bull calves, if the cow was a 2 yr old add 60 lbs. to the calfs weight, if dam is a 3 yr old then add 40 lbs., a 4 yr old add 20 lbs., and for a cow between 5 and 10 years old no adjustment. Their are adjustment factors that can vary from breed to breed, but without knowing what they are, these adjustments are pretty close.

So in the above two calves, if the first calf with the adjusted 205 day weight was out of a 2 year old.
536 + 60 = 596 lbs. final adjusted 205 day weight.

if the second calf was out of a 5 year old cow, then no further adjustment. so that calfs final adjusted weaning weight would be 561 lbs.

 

[Nesikep]

cbcr, the adjusted weaning weight formula is MUCH more complex than that, since calves gain MUCH more weight in their first month than their 7th... Even not so good cows will have calves that grow 3-4 lbs/day for the first month.

I take weaning weight as the weight when the calf is weaned, not a week or two after. Since I don't have a scale, I look at the animals I keep and compare them to equivalent animals going to the sale, and from there I can get a decent estimate of how much the ones I've kept weight. The steer I kept this year had NO weaning stress... or whatever he did have, well, he "ate his troubles away".. He was weaned 2 weeks ago and has still been gaining well.

As for how much weight an animal loses on the trip, mine pretty much get weaned the night before shipping, have a 4-5 hour trip to the sale barn, then spend the night with food and water, and usually go through the ring around 1-2 PM. I could see losing about 5% weight, but I think if someone was going to try to give me a 10% pencil shrink I'd tell them to go stuff it, or add 10% to the price.

I weaned Sept 7th this year, usually I wean Oct 20th, so my calves were a lot younger.. How did my weaning weights look? about 120 lbs light from most years (~500 vs 600-650)

 

[Jessica06]

Why is it important, in a commercial operation, to compare things equally? In an operation with a defined breeding season and a set weaning date, the cow that brings in a 600# calf is a better cow than the one that brings in a 425# calf, even if the lighter one might adjust to 650#. The heavier calf is going to be worth a lot more money. The dam of the younger calf is subfertile, and her calf should obviously be worth less. I could understand using it if you were comparing growth between different genetics, but as far as a selection tool I think adjusting the weight is just making excuses for the cow.

Nesikep, we weighed a group of calves before we loaded them on the trailer and took them to the sale. They went across the scales about 6-7 hours later. The thinner calves shrank significantly less than the nicer calves. I think they were about 6%, while the flieshier ones were closer to 12%.

 

[Nesikep]

So you think last year when I put my nice steers in at 740 lbs they were more like 800+ on the cow?

I agree that non-adjusted weaning weight is what puts the money in your pocket, and adjusted weaning weights are for comparing genetics.

 

[bbirder]

Why is it important, in a commercial operation, to compare things equally? In an operation with a defined breeding season and a set weaning date, the cow that brings in a 600# calf is a better cow than the one that brings in a 425# calf, even if the lighter one might adjust to 650#. The heavier calf is going to be worth a lot more money. The dam of the younger calf is subfertile, and her calf should obviously be worth less. I could understand using it if you were comparing growth between different genetics, but as far as a selection tool I think adjusting the weight is just making excuses for the cow.

Nesikep, we weighed a group of calves before we loaded them on the trailer and took them to the sale. They went across the scales about 6-7 hours later. The thinner calves shrank significantly less than the nicer calves. I think they were about 6%, while the flieshier ones were closer to 12%.

Ricebelt, I got in on the end of this thread but my question to you is how can you judge the shrink when you are dealing with two separate scales? You stated that you weighed them as they were loaded on the trailer and then compared them to the barn weight.

 

[cbcr]

I agree that you can't sell what you don't have. But if your calves are born in a 45 day or so window, it isn't fair to say that a cow that calved at the end of the calving season didn't produce very well, if all the calves were weaned on the same day and her calf wasn't as heavy as the older calves. But if the birthdate of the calf wasn't known, then that actual weight would be all that you have to go by.

Certainly making a record of all calves weights is important, but by using the adjustment figures would calculate the calves to a certain point. Even if calves did gain 3-4 lbs a day in their first months, this formula would still calculate their average daily gain. Nothing is perfect. But by using the same formula, and that formula is from the Beef Improvement Federation Guidelines it would let you compare.

 

[Nesikep]

What about the late calving cow that has awesome weights? Like 650 lbs in 170 days? How much should you care that she calved late and still did better than most?

 

[randiliana]

We are commercial producers. I always adjust my weights to 205 days. I want to know what each cow would have done on a fairly similar plane. I've been known to cull a cow based on her calves' weaning weights. I see no need to feed an inferior producing cow year after year. Not such a big deal right now with the price of cattle, but there have been a lot of years when the bottom line was hard enough for a GOOD producing cow to make.

As far as late producing cows, even though I do adjust weights, I keep in mind when the calf was born as well. I won't cull a later calving cow, just because she calved later, but I may not keep any heifers off of her. We run a calving season of around 60 days so as long as they breed back in that time frame its all good. BUT they have to produce at least as well as the earlier calving cows (and that brings us back to the adjusted weights).

If you just picked an acceptable weaning weight (to you), say 600 lbs, and said that, any cow that didn't meet that benchmark would get culled, you would probably be culling off most of your later calving cows. Say, that your calves gained an average of 2.5 lbs per day, and your calving starts about Mar 1. A calf born the first part of the calving season, gaining the average is going to weigh around 650 lbs. Now, a calf born 21 days later would weigh around 600 lbs, and anything later than that is obviously going to be lighter than that (using averages). By using a 205 day average or using ADG's you can see what YOUR herd's averages are, compare on a even scale and cull the ones that deserve it. You can even wean/weigh cattle on different days and still compare them.

Here's some real #'s from last fall...

Calf A (47)
Born Mar 5, weaned 496 lbs
Calf B (81)
Born Mar 26, Weaned 480 lbs
Calf C (4)
Born Apr 10, Weaned 490 lbs

Now which one produced the best? I know which one had the heaviest calf, but by using 205 day weights, I know that the cow that raised the lightest AWW was the cow that actually produced the best...This is just a mediocre bunch of cows, but I know that the first calved is definitely the poorest even though it was the heaviest and likely looked a lot like the other 2 calves did.

Calf A was 466, B was 490 and C was 536 205 day weight...

 

[plumber_greg]

So it looks like to me that the closer you get to grass with the smaller calves, the higher the adj. weaning weight will be? Just having trouble understanding how weighing just off the cow helps you.

Will Calf A be as large as Calf C after the preconditioning proctcals are met? If he is, then even tho' Calf C weaned heavier, Calf A was a better calf, so you culled the wrong cow? Assuming of course you don't know the cows. I'm just thinking that what you do with feeder calves in the end, is what you should cull cows on.

If you take them to the feedlot, weaning weights mean nothing. End premiums do. If you sell preconditioned, that is the weight.
I know genetics play a role, but the cow is also half of what you do with the calf.

Have had cows for 50 years, just in the last 20 realized sale barn trash isn't welcome here. When I changed and tried to raise the best quality I could, I sent calves to the feedlot for several years. Only in the last 8-10 have I tried to do feeder cattle. That's why I have asked this stuff, thanks for the replies. gs

 

[dun]

Because of genetics, some calves erform better on feed then on just milk and grass. If you retain ownership, those higher performing calves would make you more money. Taking weaning weights is to evaluate the cows performance mostly but also to a lessor degree the calfs. WDA would probably be a better method of calculating the calfs growth but that isn;t going to give pounds of actual weaning weight.

 

[cbcr]

What Dun is saying is right. Taking the weaning weights would provide you with the information as to how well that cow raised her calf on milk.

PWG - Post Weaning Gain is then a separate issue, this is where the genetics kick in and is the calfs ability to convert feed to beef.

Why would you take weaning weights? If you don't, then how will you know how well a calf has performed after weaning? This information would let you evaluate the genetics (if known) of the sire. The cows genetics can also have an influence with this as well, (again if known). If a producer is running a group of bulls with the cows, then if there appear to be some calves that have outstanding performance, you can parentage test the calves to see who the sire is.

The value of the information will depend on the style of management that a producer does. There are many commercial producers that have better records that some seedstock producers and have excellent records on their cows. To other producers, they are just cows and they sell calves. Having a live calf is all that is important.

 

[WalnutCrest]

120d weight gain since birth is a proxy for the quantity and quality of mama's milk
205d weaning weight gain since day 120 is a mix of mama's milk and their ability to convert
YW gain since weaning is the calf's ability to convert

If you want to know what your cows and your calves are doing, those three data points should give some good insight. IMO.