When can you tell?

[ArmyDoc]

I was reading a post the other day and the person posted a picture of their herd sire at about a year old, and again at 3 years old. What an incredible transformation. The yearling was nothing special, to my eye at least. The 3 year old was impressive.

So how long before you can tell if you have a winner?

I plan on using AI to start with, but I would eventually like to keep an outstanding bull calf to use as my herd sire. My concern is that I may not recognise that calf because I shipped him too soon.

Thanks for your input.

 

[msscamp]

So how long before you can tell if you have a winner?

Dad could generally tell by the time they were a year old. We castrated very, very few bulls after that age.

 

[grannysoo]

12 - 18 months can normally tell the story.

 

[MikeC]

Depends on what age you market your calves.

If you sell calves at weaning and if you've got an exceptional calf at weaning he will likely pass some of those genes to his progeny.

If you market your calves as yearlings and a bull really jumps out at you at that age, then he might be the one.

Looking at a 2 year old doesn't actually tell you a whole lot about what his calves will look like at every phase of development.

The trick is to find a bull that sires calves that look good at EVERY phase.

Good luck. The perfect bull hasn't been seen yet...........

 

[Sir Loin]

Doc,
Re:

So how long before you can tell if you have a winner?

Not trying to be funny but the only real way you can tell if you have a winner is if all your cows that were exposed to him put a live health calf on the ground.
Prior to that there are so many variables it's pretty well a crap shoot and all you can do is try to put the odds in your favor.

IMO far too many ranchers place entirely too much emphasis on their bull while at the same time almost totally ignore their cows and/or the product they want to produce.

If it is your intent to keep one of your own bulls for a herd sires you must first select your best cow, then select a bull that enhances that cow's weak point (s) but does not enhance her detriments.
Example: If you best cow is weak in the hind quarters be sure to select a bull that is strong in the hind quarters.
Example: You do not want to breed a bull with a large head to a cow with a large head, as that may cause birthing problems.

As for:

I may not recognize that calf

If you like the momma and you like the bull it's most likely you will like the calf when it reaches maturity.
So my advice is to know your cow and the bull and that alone should put the odds in your favor.
SL

 

[TheBullLady]

I would think you could get a pretty good idea by 12-14 months old.

 

[ArmyDoc]

Thank you all for your replies. If you can get a pretty good idea by the time the bull is 14-15 months, then I should be ok with my current plans. It would be another matter if you have to wait 2-3 years for every animal. I can keep on a good prospect for 6 months, and sell him if he doesn't shape up the way I expect. But it would get too expensive to keep him for a full year or more.

SirLoin,

I agree completely with your comments about the lack of emphasis on the cow in the sellection process. I'm still learning - don't plan to buy my start up stock for another 2-3 years. But already I have been able to identify 3-4 bulls that I'm interested in for AI sires. It seems everywhere I go there is information on bulls, but its much harder to find information about the cows... Any suggestions on how to find out more about cows and selecting cows? Do I just identify the Dams of the better Bulls and look for their daughters? LOL, I guess what I'm looking for is a listing for prospective "herdDams".


MikeC
You posted a very interesting concept; one that I'd never thought about before. I've been thinking in terms of producing "ideal" cattle. My mental image (still a bit out of focus, but improving the more I read this forum and others) was always of a mature animal. I hadn't given much thought as to how it got that way. LOL Great. Now I have to develop a mental picture that "ideal" as a weaning, and at a year, and at maturity...

There's a fair amount on how to evaluate mature animals. Where can I learn more on what to look for at weaning and at one year? Is it simply weights and frame size? What do you look for when you buy an animal at those ages?

Thanks again,

 

[novatech]

I was reading a post the other day and the person posted a picture of their herd sire at about a year old, and again at 3 years old. What an incredible transformation. The yearling was nothing special, to my eye at least. The 3 year old was impressive.

So how long before you can tell if you have a winner?

I plan on using AI to start with, but I would eventually like to keep an outstanding bull calf to use as my herd sire. My concern is that I may not recognise that calf because I shipped him too soon.

Thanks for your input.

You do not know you have a winner until his calves hit the ground, regardless of how good the bull looks.
When choosing from a group of potential young bull it is no different than choosing a bull for AI. First look at all the paper work. EPS's, pedigree, fertility etc. When you get down to the visual it can get a little more difficult. The better quality the group the more difficult it is. Look for the traits each calf excels in. A little more length, a little more depth, a little thicker etc. If at all possible look at mom and dad.
After doing this, go to another seller and do it again. Make as many mental comparisons as possible. Pics would even be better.
Make a record of all the ones you choose and keep up with them over a few years. Make note of how you did. The odds are even for pro's only 1 in 5 of those chosen will make the grade, just to get an acceptable bull, not great. In the meantime stick with the AI. or buy proven mature bulls.
The reason I suggest the above is explained in an article I posted earlier.
http://www.albcia.org/Bull_Selection_101.html

 

[Sir Loin]

Doc,
Re:

Any suggestions on how to find out more about cows and selecting cows? Do I just identify the Dams of the better Bulls and look for their daughters? LOL, I guess what I'm looking for is a listing for prospective "herdDams".

As I said before ("and/or the product they want to produce.") that all depends on what product you are trying to produce.
Example: If you are trying to produce breeding stock to sell, the answer is yes.
If your intent is to produce calves to be sold at weaning the answer is no. It all depends on what your goal is.
To put it another way:
At what time (point) will your cattle enter the supply chain of the beef industry?
Example: Weaning, 800 to 900 lbs, feed lot finished, hanging graded carcass or I don't care.
What market are you targeting? (What quality of beef do you want your cattle to grade out at?)
Example: Poor (hamburger) fair (commercial) good (choice or better) excellent (prime) or I don't care.

Those are the most important questions you must answer before you even select a breed, much less individual animals within that breed.

Once you have selected a breed that is capable (and proven) of producing the product you want to produce you then select individual animals from within that breed.

Now here is the best and easiest way to buy heifers and bulls and put the odds in your favor without having to know a great deal about cattle selection.
(Where do I send the bill for this little trade secret?)
Hello, buy from a register breeder!
But don't buy his to be or registered stock; buy his culls at weaning time after looking at the momma and daddy.

Some of my best cows and bulls were bought that way and at sale barn prices as of the week of purchase with no commissions paid.

SL